Vid chat: visualising effects

[bop_radar]

Vidding chats return! :) For those of you new to them, you can check out previous chats here.

This week's topic is visualising effects and it is co-moderated by lim. We'd really love this chat to function as a kind of shared workshop, with people sharing ideas with each other. So if you have a track out there that you're working with or considering working with and would like some shared brainstorming, share it with us here!

Below is an introduction from each of us.

From lim:

So, for me, effects are no different or separate from vidding; they're not an extra, they're not added on, they're an integral part of vidding, so I have a hard time not visualising them. I make visual associations all the time when I listen to music. Music is a mental landscape through which it's possible to move, populated and dynamic: like a holodeck, I spose.

I do a lot of free association when I'm vidding. In the first mp3 I've recorded myself playing through a track and just chunnered on about whatever the music seems to say, and what it looks like to me, what it sparks in my brain. I do this over and over when I'm vidding, and each time I'll get different ideas, visuals, elements to play with.

Audio file: Vidding Visualisation

I've tried to translate that into words, but it's a pretty right-brain activity, so there's a lot of umming and dorkalicious garblement, but I'm hoping that will encourage you to chunner on back to me without fear of being the dorkiest person in the post, haha!

I invite anyone who has a track they're working with to post it and for anyone who has a response, association, or visual, to comment in that thread.

Remember, we're ignoring the lyrics for now. Treat the voice/s as just another instrument, another element in the musical landscape. Listen to the shimmeryness, or growliness, or gloopiness of a voice, not what it's saying in English.

Then tomorrowish, I'm gonna pick a few responses and actually make what we're see-hearing, and I invite anyone who wants to to join in there too.

From Bop:

I'm a pretty odd one to be co-hosting this perhaps, as I am not a vidder who feels comfortable using effects. But hopefully by doing so I'll help others like me dip their toe in the waters. ;)

I don't know about the rest of you, but listening to lim's thoughts here makes me feel a bit less daunted going into the chat. For starters, I realised that I do already do visualisation work myself, even if I tend to think of it only in terms of clip choices (and not what effects to put on clips). It was also really 'normalising' to hear someone else have rambly associations about a track. And yes, it's really hard to put such a right-brain activity into words, but we can all have a go. :)

I don't want to say too much... I just want to say welcome (back) to vid chats, I hope you will all find this a helpful, friendly and constructive 'space'. It takes a bit of courage to share your thoughts with other vidders, I know, but hopefully this is somewhere where we can all reach out to each other a bit. I'm prepared to be a dork if you are. :p And just a reminder that you are very much encouraged here to reply to other commenters, not just the original poster(s)! And you are welcome here any time--there is no 'late' in vid chats.

For this chat in particular, I really encourage you to share your tracks, as lim suggests--how often do we get a chance to brainstorm with other vidders? Perhaps you could use one you've never been quite sure how to tackle (I know I have lots of those!).

If you don't have a track yourself but want to take part, please, PLEASE feel free to listen to other people's tracks and share your associations or ideas--you don't have to be an 'expert' to do this--we're just messing around here, no pressure, ok? And commenting to each other is a great way to take part here, even if it's just a 'hi, that's a really interesting track! made me think of ...'

And if you have any questions or random niggly things you've always wanted to ask about visualising, then feel free to share those in comments too. By all means share any interesting experiences you've had visualising effects too.

There's no rush either--I would really like to encourage people to drop back in here over the next week or so (or any time!). lim and I will pop into the comments as soon as we can, timezones and personal commitments permitting. See you soon! :)

ETA: Update! We shall relaxedly be attempting to make some things resulting from the conversations herein over the next week or so... we encourage anyone who wants to to try making something (for example "haze on the sand" or "red/green blur") and share it. I promise to handhold for anyone who fears their effects thing may look unintentionally tragic. :) We're just playing, yes? :)

Comments

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

So, I'm going to kick things off myself by sharing this track (http://www.sendspace.com/file/eljy6j), which I've always been very intrigued by. I'd love to vid to it but I've always had no clue how to approach it because it seems so ... distinctive?

So firstly, at the start, it's got those 'bah bah bah' vocals. They have a breathy quality that make me think of something fading in or out, but then they are also very rhythmic and that makes me think of something pulsing? Like a heart maybe? A heart and lungs?

Then there are the very sparse but deliberate piano notes, over which the lyrics kick it. It maybe feels like the lyrics ride off the piano notes? They kind of flourish on top of these quite heavy, ominous tones. Hmm. Or maybe like little stepping stones. The vocalist hops from one to the other. The vocals themselves are very pretty--like a skater or a very fluid dancer, something with long smooth, evocative, romantic lines.

Then there's the way the piano changes... the first hopeful high notes, the first chords, and those really strong rising chords around 1.45.

Then at 2.24 the piano kicks into more of a sustained dialogue with some percussion. It feels like things are pinging off one another? But each element is still very separate, there's just more of a working in tandem.

And then what to make of those long whistling notes at 3.10? they sound so alien.

I'm not sure if this is leading anywhere... just my ramble. :)

[lim.livejournal.com]

\o/

The whole thing has a watery quality--the bah bahs are like puffing breath in icy air, steam coming from a kettle, and the piano starts as water droplets, single drops of dew etc. The percussion at 2.24 really sounds to me like something bursting--the lid being blown off, surface tension being ripped open--a release of the underlying pressure of the bah bah bah bah rhythm.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Ohh, great thoughts! I like the watery associations--that resonates for me too.

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

First of all: THANKS so much for a) holding these chats and open them up to everybody!!! My toes are tingling with anticipation...
Second first of all: What a frickingly amazing track!!! I love the original but I've never heard this version before, it's a very stunning piece. No wonder you want to vid it...So, thanks for sharing!

I'll just free associate a bit, since I'm completely useless with music theory . The song starts of with what on my headset (the rest of my household does not appreciate to have to listen to the same song 10 times in a row) sounds like a single synthesizer tone repeated rhythmically on the left track throughout the song. To me it sounded quite artificial, not human, I was imediately thinking of a heart-monitor. It's not as sharp and beepy as they normally are, but it's the same endless repetitiveness. It sounds to me like a sad heart monitor. When the vocals set in they sound equally sad and mournful and are rather soft. Visually I was thinking of a lot of soft transitions and overlays to match the languid, evocative vocals. At the beginning the piano notes are mirroring the voice (sad, lingering(??? minor) in that they but around 0:40 there are some piano notes that are very distinct,clear and sharp (???major), they seem to demand attention, so I'd try to capture that visually somehow.

When the piano bridge kicks in around 1:40 that's a dramatic change in the tone. The piano changes from single notes to chords and becomes richer, more forceful and vibrant, and when the vocals return they seem to have been "kick-started" as well, they're are suddenly stronger and sound more optimistic.

The metallic sounding percussions are adding a further layer and richness to the music and the "heart-monitor" gets increasingly drowned out (but is still preset). The percussions remind me of energy pulses..

Then there are those lovely weired alien noises, very transcendent, which in my brain evoked elevating, twirling images and made me think of a soul being lifted up (poetic me) or a spaceship starting (nerdy me).

Hope there's something useful in there...

I'll also post the music I'm planning to use for my next vid. It's much less complex and layered than your song, not sure whether that's a blessing or a curse. Unfortunately the way my brain works is that it comes up with the idea and the key visuals first and then I have to search for a piece of music that fits, which is a bitch...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/bw4ty0

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Oh yay, I'm glad you are excited! :)

It's a cool track, isn't it? Don't know if I'll ever pull off a vid to it but it sure is pretty.

a sad heart monitor
Ohh, I love that! Yes, it's like a mournful computer... and I had had the heart association myself, but you're right they sound artificial. A lot of the track is very artificial, but then there's the honesty of the piano and the vocal.

Visually I was thinking of a lot of soft transitions and overlays to match the languid, evocative vocals.
Yeah, I thought that too. I think that scares me a bit because I'm used to just finding a beat and cutting to it. :p

they seem to have been "kick-started" as well, they're are suddenly stronger and sound more optimistic.
I agree. That would have to signal a shift in some way.

in my brain evoked elevating, twirling images and made me think of a soul being lifted up (poetic me) or a spaceship starting (nerdy me).
That is very cool, yes!

I'll go download your song and check it out. :D Yay, I'm glad other people are sharing theirs!

Your track

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

At first I see flashing emergency lights and sirens--police cars or ambulances. When the drums kick in I see someone walking towards the emergency, straight into oncoming danger.

Then at 0.15 I see a lot of movement--maybe swooping or circling camera shots, someone flying? Somehow I think of it as shippy, and I have no idea why--but I can imagine it being the place where you show two people together, in tandem, maybe fighting the odds?

As the lyrics kick in it returns to those ominous sirens. But then it builds to a triumphant or defiant place. My mind goes instantly to a martial artist (but maybe that's the action vid fan in me coming out!) Alternatively it could be something(s) exploding outwards.

From 1.58 on there's quite a nice melody over the top of the 'heavy motion'--I can imagine 'following' that, either as a character that you follow, as something gliding, flying or swooping through the sky, or it could just be reflected emotionally?

Maybe someone walking away at the end?

[thedothatgirl.livejournal.com]

Great discussion so far. And never having studied music except many years ago at 'o' level you'll have to forgive my 'dorkiness' :)

A great track - I actually prefer this to the original and I can see why you'd want to work with it. This is what I 'got' from the music. Bah-bah-bah sounds like an alarm/bleeper to me either a pulsing display or light in control panel, a warning. It feels we're at a place/moment where something catastrophic has happened and the soft, melancholy and fluid vocals and single piano cords are reflection on what has brought us to this point in time.

At 1.01 the bah-bah is now harmonized and I feel not quite so intrusive sound, however the vocals feel less fluid and a little more strident, these are the focus. The rising piano notes at 1.43 onwards suggest were building towards revelation, and as there are a series of (arpeggios? ) them then this could be various clips reinforcing the message. The vocals then are solo with the pulsing Bah bah sound - I think this feels like a crucial part of the song/vid. Then back to an instrumental bridge where the piano returns with a drum and kind of synthetic cymbal hiss sound which sounds very mechanical and suggest repetitive motion (engines). The wailing 'alien' notes sound like sirens to me, help is coming? Or perhaps the opposite they're coming to get you??

As the piece ends how it begins I would use the same image as the beginning. Anyway that's how I hear it, and that may give an insight into my strange brain O.o

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've never studied music at all, no need for embarrassment! It strikes me suddenly how useful it would be. :p

It's a cool track isn't it? I prefer it to the original too--they were amazing songwriters but I don't always click with the sound of the originals tonally. This comes from a compilation called 'She Will Have Her Way' which is reinterpretations of the Finns' tracks by female artists. It's awesome.

It feels we're at a place/moment where something catastrophic has happened and the soft, melancholy and fluid vocals and single piano cords are reflection on what has brought us to this point in time.
Ohh, that could be a cool starting point! Yes! And I love the idea or returning to the starting point at the end--that's a really logical idea that had escaped me. This is awesome!

building towards revelation
That's very useful indeed! I love the wailing alien siren sounds--I think I'd definitely like them to have an ambiguous meaning if I could. :)

Thanks so much for letting me borrow your brain!!

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

It sounds like a drowning computer. I see a water green color with a hint of blue that shimmers. I love the contrast of the piano and the "bah, bah, bah." It has softness, but there's hardness in the tinging sound. I almost see a star going supernova and swirling around into a blackhole.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

You see colours! That's cool! And there seem to be some common elements people are seeing--the watery feeling and the mechanical computer thing. Yeah, swirly supernovas are what I sort of see too, I think.

[balistik94.livejournal.com]

This is a very unusual track. It actually sounds very peaceful to me and those bah bah bah vocals have a dreamlike quality. I don't associate musical elements with specific objects or images but with emotions so I'm visualizing a succession of clips conveying happiness in a very quiet way (could be close ups or outdoor shots but without internal motion) with no transition just clean cuts until the lyrics begin. For the rising chords around 01:45 I see a lot of motion and this time with shots of gleeful and joyful moments contrasting with the quiet happiness of the beginning. At 02:24 to me is where the melancholy kicks in and things suddenly become heavier than in the beginning which doesn't mean that the happiness goes away but it has even more meaning now that we look back at the not so happy times. The whistling notes at 03:10 are dizzying and the only thing I can visualize is the rapid passage of time that can be represented with the type of sequences you can see in some commercials or movies where the camera is stationary in one room but everything is sped up and you see people going in and out and the sun going up and down something of this nature.
I don't know if it was helpful but this is how I visualize this track.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Oh wow! It's fascinating to hear other people's takes. Thank you! I know what you mean about responding to the emotion of a track--I definitely do that a great deal, usually more than thinking of shapes or colours. There is something very uplifting about the track, isn't there? I like your idea of the sped up camera too! Although I wouldn't have source of that (not if I stick to my original vid idea anyway) I can see how that would look really really cool to those notes... hmm, lots of things to think about! Thanks!

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

could be close ups or outdoor shots but without internal motion
Can I just step off-topic for a mo and check something out? If people talk about internal/external motion, do they mean moving camera (pan, zoom) verses still camera with moving object inside the frame (running person)? Sometimes I get the impression that some people use the phrase "internal motion" synonymous with "movement inside a character", meaning emotional shift, so that has me a bit confused....

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

I picked the perfect time to come online after being away for a while. :)

When I see a vid in my head, I see it differently. It's getting the actual footage to look like what I see in my head where effects come in. For a while I worked with Windows Movie Maker, which was very limited and made it difficult to make anything I saw in my head. I used Vegas now and it's somewhat easier. Mostly, my vids don't look the way they do in my head.

I get visual inspiration everywhere. Movies, posters, music videos, youtube, commercials, tv shows, postcards, life, and many other places.

FFFFOUND! (http://ffffound.com/) is a fantastic site for scrolling around and getting inspiration. As is tumblr. They're both massive complilations of random images that people think are awesome.

Now that I've rambled a bit, I have a vid I've been working at on and off for months. I've gone back and forth in my head about if I want to include the effects or if I want to drop them off.

That Day - Michael Pitt (http://www.sendspace.com/file/w33fbc)

[(Anonymous)]

There's something vaguely threatening about the song. The beginning makes me apprehensive, like the quiet before the storm. The music conjures up images of a stark, dry, empty landscape and a feeling of dread. Reminded me of the feel I get from a lot of Cormack McCarthy's novels. The vocal is full of pain and sadness, somewhere between resignation and urgency. It's all the more intense by the lack of words.

Given that's there are no lyrics to "hang" visuals on I would be very inclined to use effects. Also the style of music lends itself well to visual translation. I have to say I wouldn't really dare having a go at it myself, I thinks it's a very daunting task, but I've got no doubt you can pull it off. Can't wait to see it.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

There's a lot of openness here. The arrangement is sparse, spare, a ton of space in it. I could see a desert or outer space equally easily.

The minor key, and the way the instrumentation grows more complex only very gradually, suggests things creeping up, sneaking up on you. Suspense, disturbing things moving in the shadows. The electric guitar is a surprise, as are the voices, but they aren't the kind of surprise that jumps out and shocks you. More like a gradual realization that things are really much worse than you thought.

I see black, blue, brown, gold. Toward the end when there are cymbal sounds, that's something gold and glittery.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

It's getting the actual footage to look like what I see in my head where effects come in.
Wow, that's a cool insight for me into your vidding. I am far more pedestrian a vidder--I can summon up clips from the original and paste them together in my brain but that's as far as visualisation goes for me at the moment. It's kind of exciting to be in this discussion though because it's not focused on what is possible--its starting point is free association.

Thanks for linking to the visual inspiration too! And for bringing up how your inspiration comes from diverse other sources. May I ask a bit more about that? How do they inflence you--like how do they translate into your work? Do these things influence the mood or tone you want to capture? the composition of different shots? the colour, maybe? (Sorry this is probably a really dumb or really hard to answer question, but I thought others might be curious too--I think it's very freeing to bring in the idea of inspiration from other sources.)

I will reply about your track in a min! :)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Wow, what a freaky track! (It fits you very well. *g*)

The start makes me imagine a dry, dusty, barren landscape. Then when that twangy refrain starts up at 0.20 and repeats over and over again, I sort of imagine someone staggering along the road. I also, and I mean this in a really non-judgemental way, sort of associate it with someone who is mentally ill in some way? it repeats and repeats in a way that suggests someone can't get out of the mental loop in their head. That suggests disordered thinking to me, and it became actively distressing to me by the 2 minute mark because it goes on so long. I felt like screaming 'do something else!!!'

Then the introduction of other elements is really interesting--at first they are a relief from the main refrain, but they really just compete with it or try and drown it out and they are quite distressing in their own right. I picture people rattling chains, and I'm sort of picturing a distorted community at this stage. It reminds me of the Patrick Ness novels I read recently where one of the key ideas is 'noise'--that everyone can hear each others thoughts and that there is this cacophany constantly. It's an ugly and terrifying 'space' to live in.

After being quite distressing it does build to some kind of resolution, but a resolution that never really sees the elements blend together--there's a feeling of separatness still that makes me still feel lonely or disturbed.

[lim.livejournal.com]

I'm with the others--the desert, brown and gold, a deep burnt orange and a hazy blur across the frame from the heat. Lots of fire, the sun, anger, desolation, screaming. Squinting eyes from the intense heat--blowouts of white, tons of glow intensifying as the vocals climax, lots of circling, lots of extreme viewpoint jumps--from birdseye, to massive closeup, to a back-view, switching abruptly on the pop of the melodic strings.

When at 3:16 the breakbeat tries to start up and then gets clogged up in the melody it's like a runner trying to break away and being dragged back down, their feet tangling, drowning in many clawing hands.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

lim, when you said in your track that the drum and piano were "in control", I knew just what you meant. I do a lot of the kind of visualization you're describing here, and that kind of identification of personality characteristics with instruments is something I keep coming back to -- specific instrumentation provides the actual structure of the vid.

Where I get stuck is the translation of the characteristics, the wibbly wobbly fiddle for example, into visual effects beyond basic clip choices, characters, or action. Sometimes I can actually hear a dissolve, but the way you get from the piano's cheeky attempts to imitate the fiddle to shaking and turning the video frame askew: that's the part I have trouble with.

This is a great discussion. I'm all agog. (:

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

*puzzled face*
Which post does this refer to? I think I've missed a part of the discussion....
*grab torchlight and trod of in search of the missing link*

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

the translation of the characteristics, the wibbly wobbly fiddle for example, into visual effects beyond basic clip choices, characters, or action
Same! I realised I do do this kind of visualisation but I nearly always then translate it to clip choices or character meta. Never effects. The only exception I can think of is when I use effects from the source--visualisation has sometimes led me to think of specific effects from the source--but that's still kind of a clip really.

However, even if I don't naturally think of effects (yet?) this conversation is making me realise that visualisation is valuable creative work that I should never underestimate in the process. That's a good thing for someone like me to learn because I didn't have any creative aspect to my life before vidding and things like visualisation still sit kind of awkwardly with me (like I can feel sheepish or guilty about spending time doing them--which is silly really).

[(Anonymous)]

It's not translation to me, any more than when you dance you're translating ABBA. I think basically I'm very literal: the piano is askew, let's tip the frame on its side...

If I were dancing to this music, I'd do all funny slapstick stumble-stepping there. Another way to look at it is that the piano is going for one note and stumbling to the two around it, like someone on roller blades trying to walk down stairs. I might cut on the BAM of the piano and shake the frame so it separates into green on the left and red on the right, like something being knocked slightly out of focus, just a blur-out the side and then back into step, and then again. It's all very literal, IMO. All nouns.

Again, you're separating out clip choices from effects, you're limiting and dividing up what you can do before you've even done it. If maybe you could try to move away from that for a moment, and close your eyes, and look at the music without thinking about the video footage, it might make it easier to see what I'm saying. It might not of course, haha!

[chaila43.livejournal.com]

What's that language you speak, boy?

I have few actual thoughts, because this all seems completely different than the way I approach a vid. I do imaginary vidding for a good while in my head before I start, but I visualize clip choices and never effects, and I can't visualize anything without having an idea of what a vid is about first. Like listening to these songs, I can't visualize anything at all without having some idea of what the overall idea is first. I can't free associate based only on music, I guess, and music always seems malleable to me, like what it sounds like to me at any given point would be different depending on what I wanted the vid to be about. Something like that.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

It's pretty alien to me too but I find I like it! :) I too visualise clip choices, never effects, but that doesn't mean I can't (maybe?). I totally just 'winged' my responses to other people's tracks because I have no clue what their source was, and I kind of found it freeing. But I also felt a natural impulse to tie the songs to source material I did know, so I totally get what you mean. This definitely feels like walking on my hands instead of my feet or something. *g*