Vidding chat: Defining vid genres and narrative styles

[bop_radar]

This week in our vidding chats I want to start talking about different narrative styles in vids. There's a lot of meta out there already on this subject, and many experienced vidders or vid-watchers may have discussed this and thought about it for a lot longer than I have. But this post is where I ask everyone--whether a vidder or vid-watcher--to share with me your thoughts on the following subjects:
- What different types of vid are there?
- What characterises these different types? How do they vary in their structure?
- (As a vidder) are you mainly concerned with telling a story? with making an argument? or with capturing a mood?
- (As a watcher) do you prefer a particular narrative style in the vids you like (e.g. linear story)? /do you have a preferred genre of vid (e.g. humour)?

Disclaimer: a lot of this discussion is about defining different terms and that has disadvantages along with advantages. While it can make it easier to discuss things if we have a shared understanding of certain terms, there are many vids that defy easy classification--and that's absolutely FINE. I hope that this discussion will prove interesting; it is not my intention to limit the ways in which we make and view vids, and everything I say here can be contradicted.

Genres
Before we get to narrative style, I thought we should first think about the different genres of vid. Here are some that spring to mind for me:
- Character studies: focus on a character or characters
- Shipper vids: focus on a relationship
- Comedy: for the giggles!
- AU or constructed reality: the vidder departs from canon and builds their own story from the source
- Action: Vids that foreground action
- Multifandom: Vids that use source from several different sources/fandoms
- What sockkpuppett calls universe vids (vids that show the universe of a show). The term 'recruiter vid' is often used to describe these--they showcase a certain fandom to those who may not be familiar with it.
What other genres can you think of?

Narrative
As a beginner vidder who had watched vids for some time, I was aware of the difference between a (canonically) chronological vid (simply put: clips appear in the order they appear in canon) and a non-chronological one (clips jump around in the canoncial timeline). That was about as subtle as my understanding of narrative in vids got. My very first vid took a chronological approach--it basically recounted one story arc from canon with very few 'diversions' along the way. I was self-conscious that it was 'unsophisticated' because it seemed like the simplest form of narrative. However, I am still drawn to vidding that way and I have made my peace with it.

However, my understanding of different types of vid narrative has deepened, and now I tend to think in terms of the following:

1. Linear narrative
These vids 'tell a story'. There is a beginning, a middle and an end. They can either tell the same story as in canon, or they can tell a different story.

2. Non-linear narrative
There are many forms of non-linear storytelling. One of the simplest examples is a vid that features 'flashbacks' in certain sections. A more complex non-linear narrative may be one that at first appears chaotic, if associative, but which gradually builds up a complex picture of a certain show, character or situation.

3. Persuasive or argument vids
These vids have a central 'argument' that the vidder is making. They may use clips selectively to make or pointedly to make that point. These may be 'meta' vids since they don't just tell a story, they make a point.

4. Vids that 'tell deeper'
This is a term that I think laurashapiro first coined. She defines it as follows: 'As a vidder, my interest lies in retelling canonical stories with different emphases, exploring events or feelings that might have gotten glossed over in the show, or characters that received short shrift. I think of this as "telling deeper." And again, that's all about subtext: picking a clip not because of what it literally shows, but because of the emotional information it carries -- which can be due to context, movement, facial expression, or even something as deceptively shallow as color.'
(Personal note: I love telling deeper in my vids!)

5. Freeform/associative vids and mood vids
These are kind of stream-of-consciousness vids--I do think they exist. They may build connections between things, there may be a bit of a story or an argument, but mainly they flow along seamlessly and create an overall impression. In some ways I think humour vids often fall into this category since they're main intention is to capture a certain comedic tone, rather than make an argument or tell a story.

Complicating things further, these categories are not mutually exclusive: you could have a non-linear persuasive vid that is also highly associative, for instance.

Each of these different types of narrative, like each different genre, have their own characteristics. For beginners, maybe the easiest way to think of them is as different ways of organising the clips within your vid.

Related meta
There's a lot of great meta out there on this subject, which you may be interested in if you want to read up on how other vidders think of these things. Here are some related posts, but feel free to share your own:
- heresluck asks what types of vid are there?
- heresluck discusses vids as storytelling.
- heresluck talks about narrative.
- yourlibrarian talks about vid categories.

Discuss!
Now the fun bit! Talk to me! Tell me about the vids you watch and the vids you make. Here are some extra questions to add to the introductory ones above (and to encourage you to talk as much as you want! :p)
- When watching a vid do you ever get confused about the intention of the vidder? do you lose track of the story or argument? What helps you NOT to lose track of the story? What keeps the narrative clear?
- When you think about different categories of vid, what are the main types you think of? (Feel free to give examples of different types--I was going to do so but ran out of time. *g*)
- Vidders: what narrative styles do you use? Do you think about narrative when you vid? Does it help you organise your vid?
- Does it even matter at all? :) Does my post make sense? (Ask questions/quibble with it, if you wish!)
- If we were to discuss a particular genre or narrative style one week in these chats, which would you be most interested in discussing? *ulterior motive*

Comments

[taragel.livejournal.com]

This is such an interesting topic (and what a great job parsing it Bop!)Selfishly I'm glad you've posted this this week because I just asked a question of vidders on my own blog about organization/narrative in instrumental sections of songs.

Because I love words (and am primarily a writer), I tend to be very lyrics-reliant to tell stories in my vids. I've completed one shipper vid that had light persuasive tones, and the first draft of a character study that is comic/action oriented. I have an idea in the future to do something associative with repeating/parallel images in a show.

I'm most impressed/awed by AU videos and/or "telling deeper" vids that take the aired footage and construct a completely different narrative than the one the show puts forth. I haven't seen many of these at all and am totally new to the world of vidding really, but one example that blew me away was ferdalump's Breathe Me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWAk79f7sEo) which managed to construct an incredible Chlark storyline of marriage and pregnancy from manipulated(?) footage from the show. I'd never really seen that done before, using source material to tell a completely non-canonical story and it was very interesting. (If I were to choose one genre I'd like to hear more about in these chats, it's the AU vids).

Organization and structure: I tend to be non-chronological because I like to have a wider canvas and be able to choose just the right images to correspond to lyrics from all aired episodes. In my completed shipper vid I tried to organize according to sections, one verse and chorus about one character, one verse and chorus about the other, and the ending about them together. In the one I'm currently working on, because it has a light, comical tone, I've found I like it to have less narrative structure and be more surprising in a way, so that you never know what type of clip you'll see next (an action clip, an emotional one, a funny image.) At first I tried to organize (because I love structure and a plan helps me decide which clips to choose when there isn't lyrics to guide my way) so that I would have sections (playing, fighting, frakking), but I found I liked being able to skip around more.

Very interested in hearing everyone else's responses to this!

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I'm delighted you liked the topic as it's not necessarily an easy one to wrap one's head around but I do find it intriguing...

I agree about AU vids: they really blow me away and I would love to know more about how people create them. Even more than most vidders, I feel I'm very much a 'canon' vidder--I struggle really hard to include anything, even a mood or tone, that is not there in the original source. But that's not by choice! It just seems to be a creative limitation of mine... so I definitely admire the AU vidders. I always think they must have such a powerful personal vision of their vids.

one verse and chorus about the other, and the ending about them together.
That's a very logical organising principle for a shipper vid. *nods*

I've found I like it to have less narrative structure and be more surprising in a way, so that you never know what type of clip you'll see next
Oh, yes! I'm with you... I've just completed a comic vid myself for Vidukon and surprise was definitely something I tried to work in. It was quite a difficult experience for me to move away from my more story based vidding (and I totally didn't manage to do so completely successfully!). Structure is so comforting! (I feel like a little kid clinging to her security blankie!) I'd really like to be able to move to a non-linear, non-story based style.

[taragel.livejournal.com]

I feel I'm very much a 'canon' vidder--I struggle really hard to include anything, even a mood or tone, that is not there in the original source. But that's not by choice! It just seems to be a creative limitation of mine... so I definitely admire the AU vidders. I always think they must have such a powerful personal vision of their vids.

I'm that way too. In fact in the current vid that I'm working on, it's a Starbuck one and I felt obliged to really work with her perspective/outlook with regards to her ships and it was surprisingly a little tough for me to want to include Kara/Sam scenes (even though I don't have anything against Sammy) and hard to resist just loading in the shippy K/L scenes.

Hmm, I seem to have gotten off the original point here actually and onto one about working within canon but still against your own personal vision of things.

But anyway, I too find structure really comforting but am greatly admirable of those who can do concept or mood vids and just in awe of those who pick out a very distinct AU storyline and make it so tangible. The reason why I loved the ferdalump one even though I'm not a Chlark shipper is because I watched before I'd seen S7 and for the first couple minutes of it I was seriously thinking to myself "Holy cow, they have the sex and Chloe gets pregnant in S7?!" It was just that convincing and realistic and any outside images used (if any) just meshed so well with the actual show look and feel that I had no idea.

I think that's a really interesting way to tell a story and one I'd never seen before (I never watched fanvids before this fandom and i haven't seen any AU BSG ones like that) and didn't even think was possible since vidding= recutting clips from the show to my (limited) knowledge. Never occurred to me to use outside sources (if she did that, I'd have to go back and look) or construct that kind of completely AU storyline, just the way you could in writing.

It's really hard from me to move away from sticking close to the story the lyrics are telling and since the music is usually what inspires the vid, perhaps that makes sense. But my next vid idea is much inspired by the many parallel images/scenes from the show and I'm interesting in tracing those parallels. I don't know what my big point will be or what music I would use (probably a ballad I think) so I will really need to stew over this one for a while.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I seem to have gotten off the original point here actually and onto one about working within canon but still against your own personal vision of things.
That's ok! Still interesting. :) I know what you mean--personal preferences do sneak into my work and I've even got a few secret coded moments in my vids that only mean anything to me. Sometimes it's ok, and other times I have to fight against it like you describe to stay true to a canon vision.

Never occurred to me to use outside sources (if she did that, I'd have to go back and look) or construct that kind of completely AU storyline, just the way you could in writing.
Smallville fandom seems to be particularly fond of AU vids. If I made an AU rec list they'd be largely of SV vids. ;) But there's also a strong tradition of slash vids that create AU narratives. I've seen RPS vids and MPREG vids, for instance--and very well made ones. Some use external source material, other's don't. I think using outside source material is fascinating, though I've never done it myself. But yes, there are vidders out there doing some amazing things.

my next vid idea is much inspired by the many parallel images/scenes from the show and I'm interesting in tracing those parallels
That sounds really interesting--good luck with the 'stewing' process. :)

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

How lovely to be quoted here!

To expand on what I wrote years ago about "telling deeper", I don't think of it as a genre unto itself, but as a method or style that can be applied in any genre -- even comedy vids.

Also, I have to note, it's not what's been motivating my vids lately. (: I mean, I think I still do it, but it's more subconscious now? It's another tool in the toolbox.

To address your questions:

Yes, I often get confused by vids, particularly lately, it seems. A lot of the vids I've been watching for the past year or so are mood vids, which may play fast and loose with narrative or not contain narrative at all. I love them, I love that there's a whole community playing around with this kind of art. But my brain is very story-driven, and I find myself trying to tease out a narrative, or even impose one if I don't see one there.

I also watch a lot of vids that aren't in my fandoms. These are the ones most likely to lose me, and I think that's okay. If the vidder is making a recruiter vid or otherwise going wide in terms of audience, there are things she can do to make a vid accessible: introducing characters individually (as in flummery's "Haunted"), keeping the storyline simple, cutting closely to intelligible lyrics, etc.

In categorizing vids, I'd say you have the traditional ones covered, but I'd add meta vids and vids that are purely celebratory of a relationship but don't make an argument. I'm reluctant to call these "shipper vids", since many shipper vids are also narrative, or also comedy, or also arguments.

What narrative styles do I use? All of them! But not all in the same vid. (: I think about narrative constantly while vidding, but the vid's structure (whether narrative or non-narrative) is always determined by the song's structure. I can't impose narrative structure on a song that's doing something different, so the song is always what determines what story I'm telling -- if I'm telling one.

And for your last question, I'd love to talk about mood vids (what heresluck calls lyric vids) and the recent trend toward them.

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

But my brain is very story-driven, and I find myself trying to tease out a narrative, or even impose one if I don't see one there.
Yeah, me too! I often wonder if I'm too story-oriented sometimes. I feel I have to be so because my mind leans very much toward AU. In that case, you need a clear story since everything else is so non-canon. (I'm talking about vid bunnies in my head which will firmly stay there until a story for them gets sussed out.) Someday I'd like to create something 'looser' but since I'm new I can't give up my anchor quite yet. Might be fun, though.

What's a mood vid? I found this definition below in heresluck's meta, but have to confess I don't really know what it means.
In a lyric or thesis-driven vid, what's important is the events' mutual relationship to some external point: events are there to illustrate something else, not primarily to connect to each other.

Can someone give an example? Any mood vidders out there?

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

There are tons of mood vidders out there, though they may not self-identify that way.

I recommend taking a look at buffyann's work, particularly Dreams (http://buffyann.livejournal.com/26915.html), to get a sense of it. lim's work also does a lot of lyric vids.

I've been leaning heavily toward thesis-driven vidding for several years now, although I can't seem to vid completely non-narratively no matter what I do!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

You know I always love reading this kind of meta but then struggle with its application. I mean categories are always fun but when it comes to categorizing any particular vid they all seem to work more like Venn diagrams than neat little boxes. Or like the wave-particle thing from physics.

For example, I do like the lyric-narrative distinction, it makes a lot of intuitive sense and I particularly like the idea that in lyric or thesis-driven vids, what's important is the events' mutual relationship to something else rather than how they connect to each other to form a story as they do in a narrative vid. So if a narrative vid runs from A to B to C to D (or even C flashes back to A-B and thence we get to D) then a lyric vid is more of the form A is like A’ is like A’’. And yet even a vid that feels very mood based like “Dreams” has a story of Peter progressing from fear and uncertainty to understanding and acceptance running though it. Or a thesis-based vid like “Women’s Work,” within each section the clips parallel one another rather than forming a linear series but each section covers a different aspect of the argument so that on a larger scale there is a narrative-like progression from violated innocence through to seduction and vengeance (but they still end up dead). So maybe narrative and lyric aren’t categories so much as modes we use for both the making and the interpretation of vids and which is most evident depends partly on the vid and partly on what you’re looking to get from it.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

seem to work more like Venn diagrams than neat little boxes. Or like the wave-particle thing from physics.
Definitely!

So maybe narrative and lyric aren’t categories so much as modes we use for both the making and the interpretation of vids and which is most evident depends partly on the vid and partly on what you’re looking to get from it.
Excellent argument there. I largely agree, yes.

Perhaps then what I struggle with myself (in feeling unable to move from narrative to mood/lyric) is simply the capacity to have the vid work on more than one layer? I know I find many vids these days that work on both an intuitive emotional level for me as well as having a narrative or argument if I look for it.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I feel the same about my vids. I spend so much time thinking about them that even the sequences that were originally very intuitive I'll have a detailed narrative/argument-based justification for by the time the vid is finished. It's one of the things I do when I'm re-drafting, if something 'feels' out of place I'll rationalise it and all the possible alternatives to death and thinking about whether something fits the 'story' is easier to be objective about than whether the mood is right. When you're so close up to a thing it's really hard to maintain perspective on what something as intangible as 'mood' is, at least I find it hard.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you so much for responding and expanding on your 'telling deeper' idea! I think it's such a wonderful description.

I don't think of it as a genre unto itself, but as a method or style that can be applied in any genre -- even comedy vids.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense!

A lot of the vids I've been watching for the past year or so are mood vids, which may play fast and loose with narrative or not contain narrative at all. I love them, I love that there's a whole community playing around with this kind of art. But my brain is very story-driven, and I find myself trying to tease out a narrative, or even impose one if I don't see one there.
Me too. I love those completely non-linear vids and find them breathtaking. I aspire to vidding that way, but I find whenever I set out to vid I am so ridiculously bound by both narrative (often STILL! a linear story from canon) and canon in terms of mood and characterisation. Sigh. I guess this is where I come up against my creative limitations... and yet I know intellectually that mood vids are not necessarily 'better' than any other vids. But it still irks me that I can't vid that way! ;)

meta vids and vids that are purely celebratory of a relationship but don't make an argument.
Oh, yes, those are good additions. Thank you!

always determined by the song's structure. I can't impose narrative structure on a song that's doing something different
Yes, that's absolutely true for me too and I imagine is true for most vidders. Perhaps that means I need to pick different songs? ;)

, I'd love to talk about mood vids (what [info]heresluck calls lyric vids) and the recent trend toward them.
Noted! I'd love to do that. Thanks!

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

Yay, vid chat! Great questions as always. This will be a quick response since I'm not at home, but I will be thinking about this topic for the next few days.

As a vidder? I am concerned with telling a story. The story doesn't have to be canon, but I try to have a beginning, middle, and end to vids I make. Not always linear, either but some structure. Or else I just get happily lost in pretty pictures. Again, my vidding style is very much like my writing style (I think, I haven't really thought about my writing style). I do find the way I make vids is now influencing how I write but that's another topic. :-) I have always liked stories in music videos (like MTV), since people started making them. I think I have definitely been influenced by those.

As a viewer? I'll watch anything. I just don't want to get lost. It is so easy to get lost in a vid. When you start asking too many questions in your head, instead of just sinking into the vids world. I can even be well-anchored in a vid of an unfamiliar fandom. Like the Dark Angel vid 'Big City Lights'. (Not linked because of time, sorry.) I never saw an episode of that show, but I saw its story in the vid. So many vids are almost 'recruiter' vids for me. 'Sugar' by keewick totally recruited me to Smallville along with a bunch of SV vids.

But here's the thing, I am so story-oriented I will find a story where there is none! I, as viewer, make up my own story! It was funny when chaila43 and I both watched this wonderful vid called, Every You and Every Me (http://www.fascination-street.com/bsg.html) (scroll down). I am sure it was intended as a Starbuck/Roslin slash video. I think the vidder has even said that was her intent. But I see it totally, totally non-slashy. My own story! I want Laura and Kara to be good friends and this vid gives that to me.

But here is a question, I wonder how vidders feel when someone (like me) has a different interpretation on their vid style or its story? As a vidder, I think it's fun! I think, "Wow, you saw that? Didn't intend it, but great for you!" I'm just happy people watch and find something they like. :-)

As viewer though, sometimes I worry, I got the vid 'wrong'. I thought it was a character study and it was an 'argument' (like your Middleman) or I thought it was a linear narrative, when it was a shipper vid. I enjoy watching but sometimes I feel puzzled. I don't want to offend someone and their hard work by missing the point, you know?

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I wonder how vidders feel when someone (like me) has a different interpretation on their vid style or its story?

I feel that artists can never control how audiences receive and understand their work, and giving up the need to do so is part of what frees us creatively. I keep my audience in mind while vidding, but I also understand that alternative interpretations are a good thing: part of what makes the audience's experience interesting.

And often a viewer will say "I love the part where X did Y, because you were saying Z and it was so cool." And I think "Wow, I never meant to do that, but that IS cool!" Viewers can help you understand your own work in new ways.

I do feel that if the majority of viewers totally miss the key point(s) of a vid, then that vid has failed -- it's not communicating its message. But that's not something I blame the audience for! And if it's just a small percentage of the audience that didn't get the key point(s), well, that's not a vid that failed, that's just "you can't please all of the people all the time." ::shrug:: nothing wrong with it.

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this response! It's good to feel, I haven't gotten a vid 'wrong'. And sometimes, it's a different strokes thing. People focus on different things in a show. That's the best thing about a diversity of vids (or even a bunch of vids about the same thing) in a show. You can always learn something. Sometimes I just need to think a bit more, and I come back to a vid with a whole different view. It's so fun!

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

*nods* ITA.

[chaila43.livejournal.com]

this wonderful vid called, Every You and Every Me

*watches again* Yep, still monumentally slashy! :D Funny how just a few moments make it seem so. Anyway I have been thinking about this (in general, not just about this vid), because it's very interesting. Sometimes I too feel like I miss the point of a vid, and so I just kind of slink away from it without further thought, which I think is the wrong response. Because vids cross lines. Really good vids can be seen from many different angles. For example, aren't all character vids arguments? Arguing for a particular view of a character? And shipper vids almost always also have to be character vids for the respective characters? Different viewers may just focus more on one bit than the other, either because of what they want to see, like you say, or for whatever reason. But coming from a different angle isn't seeing the vid "wrong." At least I don't think it is. There's a point in my first vid where I intended something pretty specific, and of the people who commented about that specific moment, all of them saw the opposite. But I thought that was awesome, not "wrong." And I wonder if most vidders wouldn't think that way too.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

coming from a different angle isn't seeing the vid "wrong." At least I don't think it is.
I agree. Sometimes it brings me to a new understanding of my own vid! It's that heartening moment when you discover that the vid exists beyond you, as an entity in its own right.

And it can be useful feedback. If I get heaps of people having a certain response I'll go back and think about why that is so, and that may inform my vidding in the future.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

, I am so story-oriented I will find a story where there is none! I, as viewer, make up my own story!
*giggles* You are awesome. Thank you. I like that point very much... it makes me thinky about the fact that we (as humans) have a strong impulse towards narrative. It's how we make sense of our world and we are trained into it in all we read and absorb from an early age. So maybe vidders can rely on their viewers to find a story!

I wonder how vidders feel when someone (like me) has a different interpretation on their vid style or its story?
I find it fascinating and love it. Some vidders may mind but I haven't run across that in my experience...

I enjoy watching but sometimes I feel puzzled. I don't want to offend someone and their hard work by missing the point, you know?
I do know that feeling and worry about it too. Especially when I have a REALLY strong reaction to a vid in a certain way and drivel it all out in comments and then worry later that the vidder will read it and laugh. (Perhaps we should have a chat one day about feedback?) 90 per cent of my expreriences with that have been really positive though. I think that in most cases where a viewer connects emotionally with a vid (in whatever way) then they've tapped into something 'true' that the vidder is going to be pleased to hear about, even if it wasn't exactly what they set out to do.

[chaila43.livejournal.com]

I do agree that categories are useful in talking about vids but yet I find it’s really hard for me to categorize vids, and vids that I’d call one thing, other people would probably categorize as something else. Perhaps this is often just a definitional difference, but also I think people do watch vids for different reasons and can see whatever that reason is in nearly any vid. I mean, unless perhaps it's a show they've never seen before, viewers aren't a blank slate; something about the vid, the characters or the song or the particular vidder or whatever made them want to watch the vid and gives them expectations for what they're about to see. So what “kind” a vid is depends I think on who’s watching and for what purpose, because that determines what they'll focus on. I find I don’t even know quite how to categorize all my own vids (both real and imagined! :D) and I wonder if I would bristle and/or be pleasantly surprised at how others would characterize any of them. We could probably choose a vid and ask everyone to define what category it would primarily fall into and what narrative style it uses and I bet we’d get lots of different answers for lots of different reasons (which would, um, be really interesting now that I think about it :D).

Turns out that it’s also really hard for me to separate “genre” from “narrative style” (which will become apparent as I proceed to jumble them up together in this comment, despite my best efforts not to!). Vids with smart, dense, interesting lyric interpretations blow my mind; so my impulse is to call these “mood” or “lyric” vids, but if asked to put them into a genre beyond that “style,” well, I can’t, because many of them are also character vids and making meta statements about the show, etc. The easy thing is, of course, to just call them meta, but that's just my catch-all category.

As far as my own narrative style, I’d have to say that I trend towards the moody or lyric-y, but yet what I always like to think I’m trying to do is “tell deeper,” because what makes me want to vid at all is presenting the version of the show or character that I see. I wonder if perhaps that isn't true for everyone, that all these different styles are just different ways to try to tell deeper. What’s really interesting to me is that if I watch other vids that way I make my own vids, paying so much attention to the overarching “narrative” with every clip, more often than not I could get totally lost. People don’t watch thinking “what is this vid saying," they watch and get an impression (though they may of course go on and engage more deeply with it, which is awesome), which is probably only part of what the vidder was saying, and other viewers will get different impressions. Like daybreak777 said above, we both watched the same Kara/Laura vid. My response to the vid was: that was a very pretty vid and very well executed, but Laura/Kara slash just isn’t really my thing. And hers was: what do you mean, slash? She just didn’t get the same impression I did. And I think the vidder intended slash, so is DB loving the vid but not seeing the slash a failure of the vidder’s narrative? I guess you could say so, but I think it’s just a testament to a smart, layered vid. Which is not to say that there aren’t different narrative styles, and that narrative isn’t really important, but I find it difficult to, well, break it up into categories, and again find that the best vids defy categorization here as well and can be viewed from several different angles.

Anyway, rambly long comment which doesn’t even answer the questions you posed is rambly and long and doesn’t answer any questions. :)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

gives them expectations for what they're about to see. So what “kind” a vid is depends I think on who’s watching and for what purpose
Excellent! I'm glad you've raised viewer expectation and intention as well as vidder intention. Great point. We can't control how others will view our vids.

We could probably choose a vid and ask everyone to define what category it would primarily fall into and what narrative style it uses and I bet we’d get lots of different answers for lots of different reasons (which would, um, be really interesting now that I think about it :D).
Hee! Yes, very true.

meta, but that's just my catch-all category
I use that too, yes.

I always like to think I’m trying to do is “tell deeper,”
*nods* You probably saw above that lauarashapiro notes that she sees it as a method that can be applied to any genre, rather than a category in its own right.

I loved your ramble and am totally glad that you felt happy responding this way. My questions in these chats are only ever there as initial prompts for anyone who wants to use them. I'm happy to hear anything even remotely on topic. ;)

[chaila43.livejournal.com]

We can't control how others will view our vids.

Which is often kind of cool, like you said above, it's pretty awesome to make something that can kind of take on a life of its own, that others can map their own interpretations and thoughts onto. The biggest compliment in my eyes about my first vid was someone telling me it was disturbing and someone else telling me it was hopeful. Totally opposing interpretations! Sweet! But, also, I can't categorize that vid at all; interpretation is wide open, and even I could see conflicting interpretations of my own vid throughout the process of making it.

But the opposite situation, when I can categorize a vid, can feel very restrictive and makes me not want to put it into a category (even when it clearly belongs there!). Because I've really been thinking lately about how to combat certain expectations that I know will greet a vid I have in mind. I've had a specific Adama/Roslin vid bunny in my head for months, so I'm pretty sure I've got to make it. But even calling it that, "an Adama/Roslin vid," brings up all sorts of preconceptions and associations that I violently do not want. This goes to genre as well (topic!); do I have to call it a shipper vid? To me, that brings all sorts of baggage with it, so calling it that makes me cringe for my poor little (imaginary) vid. But yet, that's sort of what it is, insofar as it's obviously about their partnership/relationship. Putting it into that category doesn't feel restrictive to me, because I know what I mean when I say it's A/R shippy, but that is SO different from what I know others mean when they say the same thing. I'm going to make the resolutely non-romantic vid that's in my head either way, but I feel like defining it one way or the other restricts my ability to get that vision across to other people, who are inevitably going to start with a notion of what a shipper vid, and in particular an A/R shipper vid, is "saying" (if that doesn't turn them off from watching it at all). So I almost feel like I have to overcome that first, somehow, before I can even tell my own story. And of course, as a viewer, I'm guilty of doing this too. I can't say how many times I've not watched a vid that's labeled "A/R shipper vid," or "Baltar character study," or whatever, because I have preconceptions of what that vid will be about. Obviously this problem exists with defining and categorizing everything, but definitions and categories are necessary, so there's really nothing to do but ramble about it.

Um yeah, you want to be careful of encouraging faintly on topic rambles from me. Just saying. :)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, the tag of 'shipper vid' ... it is not always a good thing, no.

Putting it into that category doesn't feel restrictive to me, because I know what I mean when I say it's A/R shippy, but that is SO different from what I know others mean when they say the same thing
*nods* Yeah... I see what you mean. If I were you I'd probably avoid referring to it as a shipper vid because most people will expect it to be heavily romantic if you call it that. Maybe don't call it anything? I mean, you could just say 'Characters: Adama and Roslin' and 'Notes: explores their partnership'. By avoiding the term 'A/R ship' you signal pretty clearly that it's not a traditional shipper vid, I think?

I've seen with vids of an unlikely kind (e.g. a great take on an unpopular character) that word of mouth does a lot... i.e. if people rec your vid then people will watch on the strength of the rec regardless of genre. I've watched some damn unlikely genres I would never otherwise watch on the strength of recs. ;) Of course having the goal 'get recced' when you are vidding is not helpful at ALL, so ignore that last bit and just make it, I say. ;)

[chaila43.livejournal.com]

Hee I didn't mean to get all angsty about this one specific vid. And I will definitely make it and it will make me happy, even if everyone but my friends hates it. :D I think perhaps I'm just lamenting the. . . hierarchy is not the right word. . . divide, perhaps? in vidding. I'm not sure, I'm still seeing all of this with new eyes, but in my head I've been calling what people here are calling mood vids or thought-association-y vids and meta vids "vidders' vids," because I somehow get the impression that vids that are "just" character vids or "just" shipper vids are somehow less. . . serious? Or taken less seriously? But you have to label a vid something to summarize it, and it kind of feels like the labels/categories themselves have come to be shorthand in the vidding community for many other things, most of which I'm probably not aware of yet. Anyway it's kind of hard to articulate, and is just a general impression so I'm sort of tentative at putting it into words. And it's not like everyone doesn't do this, doesn't have expectations for certain kinds of vids, but it makes me a little sad. :)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

somehow get the impression that vids that are "just" character vids or "just" shipper vids are somehow less. . . serious? Or taken less seriously?
I think character vids are more commonly taken seriously than shipper vids, but I agree about shipper vids. I feel there's a certain stigma attached to them and I do not like it. ;) I kind of don't care because I'm a rebel like that and I think there are some shipper vids out there that beat the pants off any other vids... and I'll continue to think that regardless of whether they get the critical acclaim they deserve, but I do know what you mean. I think anything shippy has a bit of a stigma attached to it, actually... which I find sort of silly. I mean why be snobbish about people having a passion for a certain ship, when passion of some sort is surely the one thing that drew us all to fandom in the first place?

I think sometimes the subtextual or implied argument is that if you are a shipper you can't see things objectively. I take issue with that, because I think the subjectivity of one's view of canon exists regardless of who you ship or what character you like. Ususally I find that people who are snobby about those things just mean that they don't like whatever it is that they're talking about--which is a different thing entirely.

/ramble

[obsessive24.livejournal.com]

I don't know what my narrative style falls into. Obviously it depends on the vid, but probably mostly telling deeper and argument vids? I know I always need a narrative in my own vids, and I always need one when watching other people's vids to make it worthwhile. What that narrative is, however, can change from vid to vid. I think when I'm talking about "narrative", what I actually mean is "have a point". The vid needs to do more than just haphazardly throw clips together. Even when the clips individually match the individual lines of lyrics quite well, if they don't build up to any particular point then I can't get into it and don't consider it a good vid.

Not all new vidders start out this way, of course, though I do think it's something that a lot of new vidders struggle with because they don't quite understand the concept of a vid. At first it's more like "ooh, this one line in a song really literally fits my 'ship! Let me build an entire vid around that line as best as I can." And it's not until later that you begin to see the vid as one coherent whole that's supposed to be building toward something, and literal interpretation of each individual line may take a backseat to "how to make the narrative start in one place and end in another".

Looking over my vids this year, I've done a couple of argument vids (Piece of Me (http://obsessive24.livejournal.com/211009.html), Climbing up the Walls (http://obsessive24.livejournal.com/225625.html)). The narrative seems to follow a traditional argument, taking into account the particular nature of vidding. You set up your premises (Britney is moaning about her media status + the people around her + how she's represented in the media; look at these siblings getting 'cesty + explore the background as to why it could get this way), then you use these premises as strands of evidence that build up to the final conclusion toward the end of the vid.

What interests me is that this year I seem to have done a couple of vids that are structured very closely around there being different narrators to each lyrical segment. One of them is New Slang (http://obsessive24.livejournal.com/225981.html) (three narrators through the course of the vid in clearly defined segments), and the other one hasn't been released yet, though it illustrates my point quite well.

I always pay attention to the assignment of the narrator: who is saying the lyrics at this part? Can we trust what they say? Does the POV change? bradcpu did a couple of great vids that deal with narratorship from VVC08: Creep (http://bradcpu.livejournal.com/61881.html) is a more straightforward example of multiple narrators, whereas Tear You Apart (http://bradcpu.livejournal.com/62250.html) is a great example of an unreliable narrator.

In Climbing up the Walls, there's been some debate about who the narrator is and whether it changes over the course of the vid. The majority interpretation is that it's the older sibling, at least most of the time. I agree with that reading, though I also had a deeper reading in mind. I think the narrator could be the idea of incest, telling the siblings that it'll always be a thought in their head, and they can't ever escape from it. I think this interpretation lies closest to the interpretation of the actual song - that a mental disease is whispering to the head it inhabits.

Too long. Cont'd.

cont'd

[obsessive24.livejournal.com]

I love vids that spin their narrative styles mostly out of mood and thought association, and there are some truly spectacular vids out there that accomplish this. Though like Laura said above, the vidder him/herself may or may not agree with this categorising - I think it's because sometimes "mood vids" seem to have this negative association attached to them, as though the commentator is accusing the vidder of not thinking enough. I think the best mood vids still all say something quite complex about the subject matter, but the way the narrative is carried out is very fluid and thought-association-y. I'm thinking of, for example, bradcpu's Vertigo (http://bradcpu.livejournal.com/28864.html) and lim's In Exchange for Your Tomorrows (http://kekkai.org/lim//index.html#iefyt). I personally love them when they're done well, though my brain doesn't seem wired to function that way when it comes to my own vids.

Re: cont'd

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I think it's because sometimes "mood vids" seem to have this negative association attached to them, as though the commentator is accusing the vidder of not thinking enough.
Really? I didn't know there were negative associations with that term--I'm glad I know, as I've been using it as a compliment. ;) I'm biassed but I love those vids and kind of think of them (falsely no doubt!) as one of the most sophisticated ways of vidding because it seems like one of the hardest things to pull off: how do you hold your audience's attention without a clear 'plot' or argument?!

I think the best mood vids still all say something quite complex about the subject matter, but the way the narrative is carried out is very fluid and thought-association-y
Yes, absolutely. It's not that these vids 'say nothing'--they say something very sophisticated, imo, but they really invite the viewer to respond to them at a subconscious as well as a conscious level. To me they often spark the most thoughts of any vid at all, becuase I get hooked into the question 'why does this work? why does it make so much instinctive sense for me?' and then i go all meta geek on it... In some ways I feel those vids are the 'show don't tell' type of vidding--and maybe that's why I think of them as sophisticated: because I'm so conscious of that as a guide to good writing, I also apply it to vidding.

(Aside: as a viewer I think 'Piece of Me' has a powerful associative/mood aspect to it, for all that it is an argument vid--in fact it worked for me so well because it drew me into her world as well as making an argument. The argument felt all the more powerful for being 'inside' that journey. Does that make sense?)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I think when I'm talking about "narrative", what I actually mean is "have a point".
Mmm, yes, stripped back to its simplest, I guess that's what we mean.

k it's something that a lot of new vidders struggle with because they don't quite understand the concept of a vid.
I'm not sure it's that they don't understand it necessarily--I think that controlling narrative in a vid is a difficult thing, something I definitely struggle with, and even if you *know* that there should be a narrative, even if you know what you want that narrative to be, controlling that and making each line work can still be very difficult. As someone who watched vids and thought deeply about them for a long time before I started vidding, I know I was very conscious of narrative in vids but that didn't help me one bit when I actually set out to make one! Seeing (understanding) and doing are two completely different things... So I agree, but I think it's not a lack of understanding but one of skill, practice and experience.

I always pay attention to the assignment of the narrator: who is saying the lyrics at this part? Can we trust what they say? Does the POV change?
Yeah, I'd quite like to do a chat/post on POV one day. It's something I love to. Actually I'm really into tricks with POV and biased narrators in writing, so it's kind of a natural leap for me into vidding. And I'm very conscious of pov in my own vids.

[taragel.livejournal.com]

The vid needs to do more than just haphazardly throw clips together. Even when the clips individually match the individual lines of lyrics quite well, if they don't build up to any particular point then I can't get into it and don't consider it a good vid.

Not all new vidders start out this way, of course, though I do think it's something that a lot of new vidders struggle with because they don't quite understand the concept of a vid. At first it's more like "ooh, this one line in a song really literally fits my 'ship! Let me build an entire vid around that line as best as I can." And it's not until later that you begin to see the vid as one coherent whole that's supposed to be building toward something, and literal interpretation of each individual line may take a backseat to "how to make the narrative start in one place and end in another".

That's a really interesting point. I'm a newbie and I'm definitely very lyrics-oriented and I worry that I'm being too literal often. That realization of a certain song really resonating with you in relation to your fandom is where my point of inspiration usually is. But even if a song has key lyrics that fit your ship or character, I feel like you have to really be able to make the whole song's mood/storyline work for your universe. (Not just pick out key phrases and throw random filler in for the rest.) And that's where crafting a deeper story and "having a point" comes in I guess.

I do wonder though if certain kind of vids resist a point/argument. I'm working on something now which is basically "this character rocks and here's lots of her rocking". It doesn't really have a deeper message than that, but I think (hope) that's okay. Some vids have heart and are just fun to watch but don't mean more on a deeper level and I think there's room for those too. I kind of love crack!vids in fact and they seldom "tell deeper". But they can be so much fun.

I know going forward I'm always going to keep in mind your comments and question whether my vids build to a conclusive argument/point as part of the crafting process. So thanks for the thought-provoking comments.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

That's a really interesting point. I'm a newbie and I'm definitely very lyrics-oriented and I worry that I'm being too literal often. That realization of a certain song really resonating with you in relation to your fandom is where my point of inspiration usually is. But even if a song has key lyrics that fit your ship or character, I feel like you have to really be able to make the whole song's mood/storyline work for your universe. (Not just pick out key phrases and throw random filler in for the rest.) And that's where crafting a deeper story and "having a point" comes in I guess.

I think you have a point there, but as another lyrics-oriented vidder, I know that in my development I went from, 'what fits this line literally?' to 'what does that story need here that can throw an interesting twist on this lyric?'

And I think that one of the most fun things, and probably one of the most successful things my most recent vids have done is play up that gap between literal meaning and the image on the screen. The difference between the lyric and the image can be generative of such richness.

Perhaps I watch vids differently, but I really feel that in many ways I never did develop beyond "let's throw clips at this thing that are vaguely associated!", I just got better at using the song to force those clips into a story? By far my most popular vid is essentially an insane collage of BSG clips about everything ever along under the umbrella of "Laura and the Cylons and Politics," with a framing device. But the lyrics are so weird and tell such a strong story that it forces the vid into a shape even though my original process was just to try to come up with as many cool lyrical associations using as many different moments as possible. After that I did do some cleaning up, narratively, in terms of my choices, but really comparatively little.

Though I have to admit, with some of my other vids that never would have worked. I've never had to be so narratively aware as when I made a minor character oriented vid, for instance, working with very limited footage, and wow did that make my head hurt. It was not at all what I was used to.

As laurashapiro noted, the structure of the song often dictates the narrative of the vid and whether it can be entirely linear or not. The visuals are the defining attribute of the vid in terms of its target audience and topic and story but the audio choice determines so much.

Um. If this post had a point is was that I don't think you should panic about being a lyrics-oriented vidder. I honestly believe most of us are and the comment to which you are replying was a comment on using lyrics that aren't immediately literally clear in the context of the show lazily rather than working closely with the lyrics? (Though obviously, it's not my comment so I apologise if I misinterpreted!)

[taragel.livejournal.com]

Yeah that's another really interesting point: lyrics being literal vs. being figurative or metaphorical. I tend to like to interpret them as literally as possible, but occasionally there's no choice but to be figurative (esp. with BSG, since some stuff isn't really possible to be literal since it's taking place in space, etc. Heh, and for an example on the most basic level, my current vid is to a song that has a lyric about "a burrito and a Barq's" and you know they eat a lot of noodles up there in space but not so much with the burritos and enchiladas. :)

I look forward to watching everyone's vids and becoming more about the figurative/deeper connections for future works!

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

My comment below not withstanding, I definitely think that a common early learning curve for a lot of vidders is about literalism and where it works and doesn't work... I found that out by experience and I think most people do. Burritos = noodles is just fine. ;) In that case the gap between the lyric and what they actually eat will probably work for your vid rather than against it, in that it reminds people of the BSG universe versus our universe.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I worry that I'm being too literal often
*hands you a membership card* Yuh. Welcome to the world of beginning vidding. I have spent two years angsting about that! Because the one thing I saw hammered home time and time again in vid meta was 'don't be too literal!!!' And one day I've got a whole post in me on that subject because you know what? Literalism has a place. And yes, a lot of beginner vids do rely (too) heavily on literalism and it doesn't always work--but I think that's not because 'literalism = bad' but because they don't use it as one tool in a repertoire of tools. Does that make sense? I think if you pick and choose where you're literal and if you are literal to a purpose then it can be very powerful.

Regardless, being lyrics-oriented doesn't mean being literal necessarily. I'm very lyrics oriented as a vidder too (word person!) and ok, maybe I still am a little more literal than some vidders, but I have made my peace with that and I like my vids, damn it! :) And I think you can be very in tune with lyrics and tease meanings out of them without being literal.

Also I heart literalism in *other* people's vids--when used cleverly. It can be comedic, it can anchor an otherwise amorphous vid, it can be pointed, it can be used to draw attention to a metaphor... it's an important skill. But it's like any narrative choice--if it's the only trick in your bag then it will limit your vidding.

So this comment has two points:
1. I don't think being 'lyrics-oriented' necessarily means your vidding is 'literal'.
2. Literalism has a place!

[jude-judith82.livejournal.com]

I find your posts on vidding fascinating. I've made one but this is basically a guide I'm more than likely not going to make any but very informative.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I'm glad you find them interesting. :)

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

Regarding categories of vids: I've done mostly character studies, shippy vids, and action vids. Especially action vids. I almost exclusively vid Avatar, and it's a pretty action-heavy show with a lot of flashy fight scenes that are a joy to vid.

However I'd add another category, something I call "plot vids." Vids that retell some portion of a show's plot, but with a focus on a specific character, group of characters, or theme. Like in "The New Year," I retold the first half of Avatar S3 through the eyes of the main character, but not in such a focused way that it could be called a character study. I don't know, I view a character study as being more intimately focused on the character and nothing else, whereas this was more of a balance between plot and character.

As far as narrative, I'd not really thought about it before! D: I tend to focus a lot on the lyrics and let those guide the story I'm trying to tell.

However now that I think about it... hmm. Linear is always a nice way to go (just because it makes sense!) and I've used flashbacks in several vids. One narrative technique I used once, and quite liked on reflection, was I let one particularly emotional scene be the sort of centerpiece of the vid, and then intercut clips of that scene with clips of other scenes that fit in with the angsty tone of the vid. That was for "Hide and Seek," a shippy vid.

But I do like using the sort of "side-by-side" technique, where you have two scenes that you're flipping back and forth between, to juxtapose the two, either for similarity or contrast.

And then there are action vids which are a whole different ball of wax!

And as far as the freeform vids, I've never seen one but I'm intending to make one soon, which, yikes! It's going to be focusing purely on the imagery of the clips, with no real narrative or argument. I hope I can make it work. D:

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

something I call "plot vids.
*nods* I think I think of those as linear vids--vids with a clear narrative, plot or story.

I let one particularly emotional scene be the sort of centerpiece of the vid, and then intercut clips of that scene with clips of other scenes that fit in with the angsty tone of the vid. That was for "Hide and Seek," a shippy vid.
That sounds like an excellent structure for a shippy vid!

I do like using the sort of "side-by-side" technique, where you have two scenes that you're flipping back and forth between, to juxtapose the two, either for similarity or contrast.
Yeah, I'm a sucker for that too. ;)

Good luck with your freeform/imagery vid! I'm sure it will be an interesting learning experience.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

You know, this is totally fascinating and also makes me realise how little of my conscious thought goes into these things. Apparently I make vids very instinctively through a process of clip and lyric association and general fumbling around and worrying about whether bits 'don't work' and then fixing them if I feel they're not doing what the vid's supposed to do, whatever that is. Sekritly I suspect that a lot of people probably work this way!

But I do think that I agree with the people talking about how these genres and styles are more venn diagram or waveform than firm boundries. But then...isn't that always the case with genres?

I would add a type of vid, though. Gen! I suppose this comes under 'Universe vids,' and actually I'm reasonably happy with that title, though gen vids can choose to concentrate on certain parts of the universe rather than the whole thing.

Though if we were going to discuss a specific type of vid, I'd love to discuss AU and crack vids, and when, exactly, a vid crosses the border to becoming a crack!vid.

This curiosity actually comes from the fact that a lot of my 'gen' vidding (and character vidding, and, screw it, my vidding in general) isn't simply an attempt to retell the story, but, as I suspect is the case with most other vidders, an attempt to say, "Here. This is what I see!"

And because the writers aren't me, that's often something that diverges to some degree from canon, even if just in terms of focus.

I think what I'm talking about is the difference between constructed reality vids and vids that 'tell deeper' (and what a wonderful phrase that is!) and how...I'm no longer sure where the boundries of those are. The same way I'm no longer sure where the boundries of silly crack and serious crack are. Sometimes it's obvious....sometimes not.

For instance, I don't consider myself to have ever really made an AU vid, but I did recently make a Sam/Kara/Scar the Cylon Raider OT3 vidlet from the Raider's POV. Obviously that's a humorous premise and an AU premise, but at the same time, I wanted to treat it deadly seriously and point out the parallels I really think exist between Kara and Sam and their various parallel encounters with these raiders as a metaphore for the cylon influence in both of their lives and destinies. So...yeah.

I think AU and constructed reality vids are so tricky to discuss because there are actually a bunch of different things going on with them, and a bunch of very different sub-genres; all of which are pretty impressive. There's the total departure from canon, which is technically impressive in terms of its construction of a new story, and then there's the sort where you adhere to, but completely reinterpret existing canon which is impressive in the way it teases out new stories and makes commentaries on the way canon exists at the moment under a more traditional interpretation. Which is, I think, what a lot of the best slash vids do.

[taragel.livejournal.com]

This is not a deep comment at all, but I love Crack!Vids. They make me so happy and are so fun to watch. Esp. for a show like BSG which has so little humor in it (esp. nowadays) I think it can be really challenging to ring out humor/parody from its raw material/clips.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I love them too. :D Can't make the buggers though. ;)

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

isn't that always the case with genres?
Absolutely. I agree with the Venn diagram-ness of them, for sure.

I'd love to discuss AU and crack vids, and when, exactly, a vid crosses the border to becoming a crack!vid.
Ohh... that's interesting. I think of crack!vids as deliberately humorous but AU vids as serious. But I wonder what other people think?

the difference between constructed reality vids and vids that 'tell deeper' (and what a wonderful phrase that is!) and how...I'm no longer sure where the boundries of those are
Ahhh. Yes, I see/know what you mean. I hit that a lot because my vids are usually meta-based but definitely embody 'my' vision of the show in a 'telling deeper' way. And BSG in particular is such a contentious bastard of a show, I'm sure that someone else could interpret it as more 'constructed'. The thing I keep asking myself as I vid is 'is this true to what I see on the show (rather than what I'd like to see)?' And if it is, then I keep going because I figure if I see it, then someone else will too, or at the very least they'll be able to see how someone could see it that way. If, however, I feel myself straying into wish-fulfilment territory I pull it back in.

Still... it's HARD. At the moment I'm struggling with planning a vid that has the potential to be awesome but which puts a certain spin on a character which I know some people in fandom will not be happy with. And I don't even necessarily agree with that spin myself! But the vid would be so good ... *torn*

did recently make a Sam/Kara/Scar the Cylon Raider OT3 vidlet from the Raider's POV.
Wow! That sounds cool.

There's the total departure from canon, which is technically impressive in terms of its construction of a new story, and then there's the sort where you adhere to, but completely reinterpret existing canon which is impressive in the way it teases out new stories and makes commentaries on the way canon exists at the moment under a more traditional interpretation. Which is, I think, what a lot of the best slash vids do.
Mmm, yeah you are making me question my own definitions now. I tend to only call something an AU vid if it really totally departs from canon (i.e. makes a plot which is not in canon). Perhaps as a slash fan I'm used to seeing subtext as part of the text... so if a vid is 'just' a slash vid (retelling story from canon but with slash foregrounded) then I don't tend to think of it as AU. Huh. I hadn't really articulated that before... I think of it more in the style of 'shipper, telling deeper' vid.

However, you are right that there are a whole lot of vids out there, shipper or not, which reinterpret canon pretty radically without actually straying from the basic plot.

I guess we should delineate between vids that are talking about canon even if they are reinterpreting it, and vids which markedly make their own canon (e.g. make up a new story about two characters having an affair when that is not even suggested on the actual show in any way).

my thinky thoughts

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

While I think there is a need for categories for clarity, I find myself more interested in the vids that defy labeling.

I use different terminology for a few things. I like calling an AU vid an unrealized reality. The concept comes from the Farscape episode where John Crichton is shown different alternate worlds where some things are different and some things are the same. I liked the idea because there are many possible outcomes based on parallel situations. So I like calling AU vids unrealized realities because if there were Planet Terror zombies on Supernatural, that's what it would be.

In my own vidding I tend to prefer character studies that try to get under the skin of a character and see the world the way they see it. I also like trying to get at the reasons for their actions to provoke a deconstruction. I like paralleling and showing connections as well. I play with POV too much in my vids, so it never comes across very well.

I've been confused when watching vids before because I wonder if I'm supposed to take the clips as something new or if I'm supposed to only see it in the context of the vid.

I think that some limited repetition within the vid helps to get certain thoughts across. Associating colors or something to a character helps sometimes.

While I prefer certain genres, I can appreciate all of the for their own attributes and differences.

Re: my thinky thoughts

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Yay thinky thoughts!

an unrealized reality
I like that term!

I wonder if I'm supposed to take the clips as something new or if I'm supposed to only see it in the context of the vid
Mmm... yes, I'm not sure if I read it somewhere but I often think of it as the vidder needing to take the viewer by the hand and lead them through the vid. I've learnt that it's important to signal your intentions and framing device(s) to the viewer.

I think that some limited repetition within the vid helps to get certain thoughts across. Associating colors or something to a character helps sometimes.
Oh, those are interesting ideas! Thank you for sharing them.

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

Fascinating discussion! I love reading this as a non-vidder because there's none of that "uh-oh, maybe I should be doing that, but I'm not sure I could pull it off" feeling I sometimes get when reading about the fic-writing creative process.

-When I particularly admire a vid, I worry a lot about getting the interpretation "right," because as others were saying I don't want to write someone novel length feedback and tell them how brilliant they were to do something completely other than what they intended to to! So I worry about losing track of the argument of the vid when writing feedback to 'argument' or 'telling deeper' vids in particular. It helps if the vidder will tip her hand a bit early on, because if I don't detect an organizing structure fairly early on my mind will start to impose one. I think the best example is one of my now-favorite vids, that I initially thought I would absolutely hate. Not because the vidder did anything wrong, but because the character it was about + song choice + the author's notes made me expect something entirely different than it was. (It's called Jolene (http://nicole-anell.livejournal.com/84062.html) and it's about Cally and Cylonhood as the other woman"> I don't know whether I'd characterize it as an argument or as 'telling deeper' - probably both? I guess argument vids must always be exploring aspects of the show that are already present (so 'telling deeper') but not necessarily explicit - unless the argument is just non-canon based. (?)

I think my favorite vids are those which explore metaphor or otherwise cause me to look at various characters and events in ways I hadn't before. (Or vids about Kara - those don't have to be intellectual at all! ;) Like Hera Has Six Mommies, for example, which among other things paralleled Roslin and D'Anna - not characters I would have thought to compare, which made it all the better for me.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad you enjoy reading it as a non-vidder: thanks!

It helps if the vidder will tip her hand a bit early on, because if I don't detect an organizing structure fairly early on my mind will start to impose one.
Ah, yes, I agree. I do think strong beginnings are very important to establish for your audience what you are doing. Otherwise, as you say, the viewer may adopt all manner of other interpretations... which is great, but if you want a particular point to get across, you need to guide them.

I've meant to watch 'Jolene' for aaaages so thanks for reminding me that I need to go do so. I went on a personal BSG hiatus of sorts and never got round to it.

I guess argument vids must always be exploring aspects of the show that are already present (so 'telling deeper') but not necessarily explicit - unless the argument is just non-canon based. (?)
If they're canon-based argument vids, yes they use what's already present in some form at least... but there are 'statement vids' which very definitely speak outside of canon about canon. (Vids like 'Women's work' for SPN, or 'How much is that Geisha?' for FF, or 'Origin Stories' for Buffy.)

vids are those which explore metaphor or otherwise cause me to look at various characters and events in ways I hadn't before
I agree--I love those most of all. I like it when a vid makes me think about something I haven't thought about before or encourages me to see a character in a different light. Those are the most exciting moments for me.

[duskpeterson.livejournal.com]

I haven't watched enough songvids to contribute to the genre discussion of them, I'm afraid. (I'm partially sighted, so watching vids is a strain on my eyes. I tend to wait for recs to come my way, rather than search out vids.)

What I can say is that the situation over in the booktrailer (http://duskpeterson.com/booktrailer) world, where I come from, is very different. Booktrailers, as far as I can tell, are divided into two sorts: blurbs and linear narratives (recreating part of the book). Among American booktrailer creators, blurb booktrailers far outnumber narrative booktrailers, which I find puzzling, because the success of music videos shows that many viewers love narratives. I think the relative failure of booktrailers to capture viewers' interests is partly due to this (and also to some really boring choices in image and music).

In my vids, which are trailers for my originalfic, I usually try to blend the blurb and narrative approaches, but I'd like to do more pure narrative vids, like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaU2GKQUpLM).

By the way, thanks for beginning this series! The discussions are really interesting.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Cool! I'm glad you're enjoying it. Thank you for bringing a different perspective to the discussions.