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bop_radarThis week in our vidding chats I want to start talking about different narrative styles in vids. There's a lot of meta out there already on this subject, and many experienced vidders or vid-watchers may have discussed this and thought about it for a lot longer than I have. But this post is where I ask everyone--whether a vidder or vid-watcher--to share with me your thoughts on the following subjects:
- What different types of vid are there?
- What characterises these different types? How do they vary in their structure?
- (As a vidder) are you mainly concerned with telling a story? with making an argument? or with capturing a mood?
- (As a watcher) do you prefer a particular narrative style in the vids you like (e.g. linear story)? /do you have a preferred genre of vid (e.g. humour)?
Disclaimer: a lot of this discussion is about defining different terms and that has disadvantages along with advantages. While it can make it easier to discuss things if we have a shared understanding of certain terms, there are many vids that defy easy classification--and that's absolutely FINE. I hope that this discussion will prove interesting; it is not my intention to limit the ways in which we make and view vids, and everything I say here can be contradicted.
Genres
Before we get to narrative style, I thought we should first think about the different genres of vid. Here are some that spring to mind for me:
- Character studies: focus on a character or characters
- Shipper vids: focus on a relationship
- Comedy: for the giggles!
- AU or constructed reality: the vidder departs from canon and builds their own story from the source
- Action: Vids that foreground action
- Multifandom: Vids that use source from several different sources/fandoms
- What![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sockkpuppett calls universe vids (vids that show the universe of a show). The term 'recruiter vid' is often used to describe these--they showcase a certain fandom to those who may not be familiar with it.
What other genres can you think of?
Narrative
As a beginner vidder who had watched vids for some time, I was aware of the difference between a (canonically) chronological vid (simply put: clips appear in the order they appear in canon) and a non-chronological one (clips jump around in the canoncial timeline). That was about as subtle as my understanding of narrative in vids got. My very first vid took a chronological approach--it basically recounted one story arc from canon with very few 'diversions' along the way. I was self-conscious that it was 'unsophisticated' because it seemed like the simplest form of narrative. However, I am still drawn to vidding that way and I have made my peace with it.
However, my understanding of different types of vid narrative has deepened, and now I tend to think in terms of the following:
1. Linear narrative
These vids 'tell a story'. There is a beginning, a middle and an end. They can either tell the same story as in canon, or they can tell a different story.
2. Non-linear narrative
There are many forms of non-linear storytelling. One of the simplest examples is a vid that features 'flashbacks' in certain sections. A more complex non-linear narrative may be one that at first appears chaotic, if associative, but which gradually builds up a complex picture of a certain show, character or situation.
3. Persuasive or argument vids
These vids have a central 'argument' that the vidder is making. They may use clips selectively to make or pointedly to make that point. These may be 'meta' vids since they don't just tell a story, they make a point.
4. Vids that 'tell deeper'
This is a term that I thinklaurashapiro first coined. She defines it as follows: 'As a vidder, my interest lies in retelling canonical stories with different emphases, exploring events or feelings that might have gotten glossed over in the show, or characters that received short shrift. I think of this as "telling deeper." And again, that's all about subtext: picking a clip not because of what it literally shows, but because of the emotional information it carries -- which can be due to context, movement, facial expression, or even something as deceptively shallow as color.'
(Personal note: I love telling deeper in my vids!)
5. Freeform/associative vids and mood vids
These are kind of stream-of-consciousness vids--I do think they exist. They may build connections between things, there may be a bit of a story or an argument, but mainly they flow along seamlessly and create an overall impression. In some ways I think humour vids often fall into this category since they're main intention is to capture a certain comedic tone, rather than make an argument or tell a story.
Complicating things further, these categories are not mutually exclusive: you could have a non-linear persuasive vid that is also highly associative, for instance.
Each of these different types of narrative, like each different genre, have their own characteristics. For beginners, maybe the easiest way to think of them is as different ways of organising the clips within your vid.
Related meta
There's a lot of great meta out there on this subject, which you may be interested in if you want to read up on how other vidders think of these things. Here are some related posts, but feel free to share your own:
-heresluck asks what types of vid are there?
-heresluck discusses vids as storytelling.
-heresluck talks about narrative.
-yourlibrarian talks about vid categories.
Discuss!
Now the fun bit! Talk to me! Tell me about the vids you watch and the vids you make. Here are some extra questions to add to the introductory ones above (and to encourage you to talk as much as you want! :p)
- When watching a vid do you ever get confused about the intention of the vidder? do you lose track of the story or argument? What helps you NOT to lose track of the story? What keeps the narrative clear?
- When you think about different categories of vid, what are the main types you think of? (Feel free to give examples of different types--I was going to do so but ran out of time. *g*)
- Vidders: what narrative styles do you use? Do you think about narrative when you vid? Does it help you organise your vid?
- Does it even matter at all? :) Does my post make sense? (Ask questions/quibble with it, if you wish!)
- If we were to discuss a particular genre or narrative style one week in these chats, which would you be most interested in discussing? *ulterior motive*
- What different types of vid are there?
- What characterises these different types? How do they vary in their structure?
- (As a vidder) are you mainly concerned with telling a story? with making an argument? or with capturing a mood?
- (As a watcher) do you prefer a particular narrative style in the vids you like (e.g. linear story)? /do you have a preferred genre of vid (e.g. humour)?
Disclaimer: a lot of this discussion is about defining different terms and that has disadvantages along with advantages. While it can make it easier to discuss things if we have a shared understanding of certain terms, there are many vids that defy easy classification--and that's absolutely FINE. I hope that this discussion will prove interesting; it is not my intention to limit the ways in which we make and view vids, and everything I say here can be contradicted.
Genres
Before we get to narrative style, I thought we should first think about the different genres of vid. Here are some that spring to mind for me:
- Character studies: focus on a character or characters
- Shipper vids: focus on a relationship
- Comedy: for the giggles!
- AU or constructed reality: the vidder departs from canon and builds their own story from the source
- Action: Vids that foreground action
- Multifandom: Vids that use source from several different sources/fandoms
- What
sockkpuppett calls universe vids (vids that show the universe of a show). The term 'recruiter vid' is often used to describe these--they showcase a certain fandom to those who may not be familiar with it.What other genres can you think of?
Narrative
As a beginner vidder who had watched vids for some time, I was aware of the difference between a (canonically) chronological vid (simply put: clips appear in the order they appear in canon) and a non-chronological one (clips jump around in the canoncial timeline). That was about as subtle as my understanding of narrative in vids got. My very first vid took a chronological approach--it basically recounted one story arc from canon with very few 'diversions' along the way. I was self-conscious that it was 'unsophisticated' because it seemed like the simplest form of narrative. However, I am still drawn to vidding that way and I have made my peace with it.
However, my understanding of different types of vid narrative has deepened, and now I tend to think in terms of the following:
1. Linear narrative
These vids 'tell a story'. There is a beginning, a middle and an end. They can either tell the same story as in canon, or they can tell a different story.
2. Non-linear narrative
There are many forms of non-linear storytelling. One of the simplest examples is a vid that features 'flashbacks' in certain sections. A more complex non-linear narrative may be one that at first appears chaotic, if associative, but which gradually builds up a complex picture of a certain show, character or situation.
3. Persuasive or argument vids
These vids have a central 'argument' that the vidder is making. They may use clips selectively to make or pointedly to make that point. These may be 'meta' vids since they don't just tell a story, they make a point.
4. Vids that 'tell deeper'
This is a term that I think
laurashapiro first coined. She defines it as follows: 'As a vidder, my interest lies in retelling canonical stories with different emphases, exploring events or feelings that might have gotten glossed over in the show, or characters that received short shrift. I think of this as "telling deeper." And again, that's all about subtext: picking a clip not because of what it literally shows, but because of the emotional information it carries -- which can be due to context, movement, facial expression, or even something as deceptively shallow as color.'(Personal note: I love telling deeper in my vids!)
5. Freeform/associative vids and mood vids
These are kind of stream-of-consciousness vids--I do think they exist. They may build connections between things, there may be a bit of a story or an argument, but mainly they flow along seamlessly and create an overall impression. In some ways I think humour vids often fall into this category since they're main intention is to capture a certain comedic tone, rather than make an argument or tell a story.
Complicating things further, these categories are not mutually exclusive: you could have a non-linear persuasive vid that is also highly associative, for instance.
Each of these different types of narrative, like each different genre, have their own characteristics. For beginners, maybe the easiest way to think of them is as different ways of organising the clips within your vid.
Related meta
There's a lot of great meta out there on this subject, which you may be interested in if you want to read up on how other vidders think of these things. Here are some related posts, but feel free to share your own:
-
heresluck asks what types of vid are there?-
heresluck discusses vids as storytelling.-
heresluck talks about narrative.-
yourlibrarian talks about vid categories.Discuss!
Now the fun bit! Talk to me! Tell me about the vids you watch and the vids you make. Here are some extra questions to add to the introductory ones above (and to encourage you to talk as much as you want! :p)
- When watching a vid do you ever get confused about the intention of the vidder? do you lose track of the story or argument? What helps you NOT to lose track of the story? What keeps the narrative clear?
- When you think about different categories of vid, what are the main types you think of? (Feel free to give examples of different types--I was going to do so but ran out of time. *g*)
- Vidders: what narrative styles do you use? Do you think about narrative when you vid? Does it help you organise your vid?
- Does it even matter at all? :) Does my post make sense? (Ask questions/quibble with it, if you wish!)
- If we were to discuss a particular genre or narrative style one week in these chats, which would you be most interested in discussing? *ulterior motive*
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no subject
Date: 2008-10-11 10:41 pm (UTC)Not all new vidders start out this way, of course, though I do think it's something that a lot of new vidders struggle with because they don't quite understand the concept of a vid. At first it's more like "ooh, this one line in a song really literally fits my 'ship! Let me build an entire vid around that line as best as I can." And it's not until later that you begin to see the vid as one coherent whole that's supposed to be building toward something, and literal interpretation of each individual line may take a backseat to "how to make the narrative start in one place and end in another".
Looking over my vids this year, I've done a couple of argument vids (Piece of Me (http://obsessive24.livejournal.com/211009.html), Climbing up the Walls (http://obsessive24.livejournal.com/225625.html)). The narrative seems to follow a traditional argument, taking into account the particular nature of vidding. You set up your premises (Britney is moaning about her media status + the people around her + how she's represented in the media; look at these siblings getting 'cesty + explore the background as to why it could get this way), then you use these premises as strands of evidence that build up to the final conclusion toward the end of the vid.
What interests me is that this year I seem to have done a couple of vids that are structured very closely around there being different narrators to each lyrical segment. One of them is New Slang (http://obsessive24.livejournal.com/225981.html) (three narrators through the course of the vid in clearly defined segments), and the other one hasn't been released yet, though it illustrates my point quite well.
I always pay attention to the assignment of the narrator: who is saying the lyrics at this part? Can we trust what they say? Does the POV change?
In Climbing up the Walls, there's been some debate about who the narrator is and whether it changes over the course of the vid. The majority interpretation is that it's the older sibling, at least most of the time. I agree with that reading, though I also had a deeper reading in mind. I think the narrator could be the idea of incest, telling the siblings that it'll always be a thought in their head, and they can't ever escape from it. I think this interpretation lies closest to the interpretation of the actual song - that a mental disease is whispering to the head it inhabits.
Too long. Cont'd.
cont'd
Date: 2008-10-11 10:41 pm (UTC)Re: cont'd
Date: 2008-10-12 02:48 am (UTC)Really? I didn't know there were negative associations with that term--I'm glad I know, as I've been using it as a compliment. ;) I'm biassed but I love those vids and kind of think of them (falsely no doubt!) as one of the most sophisticated ways of vidding because it seems like one of the hardest things to pull off: how do you hold your audience's attention without a clear 'plot' or argument?!
I think the best mood vids still all say something quite complex about the subject matter, but the way the narrative is carried out is very fluid and thought-association-y
Yes, absolutely. It's not that these vids 'say nothing'--they say something very sophisticated, imo, but they really invite the viewer to respond to them at a subconscious as well as a conscious level. To me they often spark the most thoughts of any vid at all, becuase I get hooked into the question 'why does this work? why does it make so much instinctive sense for me?' and then i go all meta geek on it... In some ways I feel those vids are the 'show don't tell' type of vidding--and maybe that's why I think of them as sophisticated: because I'm so conscious of that as a guide to good writing, I also apply it to vidding.
(Aside: as a viewer I think 'Piece of Me' has a powerful associative/mood aspect to it, for all that it is an argument vid--in fact it worked for me so well because it drew me into her world as well as making an argument. The argument felt all the more powerful for being 'inside' that journey. Does that make sense?)
no subject
Date: 2008-10-12 02:42 am (UTC)Mmm, yes, stripped back to its simplest, I guess that's what we mean.
k it's something that a lot of new vidders struggle with because they don't quite understand the concept of a vid.
I'm not sure it's that they don't understand it necessarily--I think that controlling narrative in a vid is a difficult thing, something I definitely struggle with, and even if you *know* that there should be a narrative, even if you know what you want that narrative to be, controlling that and making each line work can still be very difficult. As someone who watched vids and thought deeply about them for a long time before I started vidding, I know I was very conscious of narrative in vids but that didn't help me one bit when I actually set out to make one! Seeing (understanding) and doing are two completely different things... So I agree, but I think it's not a lack of understanding but one of skill, practice and experience.
I always pay attention to the assignment of the narrator: who is saying the lyrics at this part? Can we trust what they say? Does the POV change?
Yeah, I'd quite like to do a chat/post on POV one day. It's something I love to. Actually I'm really into tricks with POV and biased narrators in writing, so it's kind of a natural leap for me into vidding. And I'm very conscious of pov in my own vids.
no subject
Date: 2008-10-12 04:27 am (UTC)Not all new vidders start out this way, of course, though I do think it's something that a lot of new vidders struggle with because they don't quite understand the concept of a vid. At first it's more like "ooh, this one line in a song really literally fits my 'ship! Let me build an entire vid around that line as best as I can." And it's not until later that you begin to see the vid as one coherent whole that's supposed to be building toward something, and literal interpretation of each individual line may take a backseat to "how to make the narrative start in one place and end in another".
That's a really interesting point. I'm a newbie and I'm definitely very lyrics-oriented and I worry that I'm being too literal often. That realization of a certain song really resonating with you in relation to your fandom is where my point of inspiration usually is. But even if a song has key lyrics that fit your ship or character, I feel like you have to really be able to make the whole song's mood/storyline work for your universe. (Not just pick out key phrases and throw random filler in for the rest.) And that's where crafting a deeper story and "having a point" comes in I guess.
I do wonder though if certain kind of vids resist a point/argument. I'm working on something now which is basically "this character rocks and here's lots of her rocking". It doesn't really have a deeper message than that, but I think (hope) that's okay. Some vids have heart and are just fun to watch but don't mean more on a deeper level and I think there's room for those too. I kind of love crack!vids in fact and they seldom "tell deeper". But they can be so much fun.
I know going forward I'm always going to keep in mind your comments and question whether my vids build to a conclusive argument/point as part of the crafting process. So thanks for the thought-provoking comments.
no subject
Date: 2008-10-12 11:30 am (UTC)I think you have a point there, but as another lyrics-oriented vidder, I know that in my development I went from, 'what fits this line literally?' to 'what does that story need here that can throw an interesting twist on this lyric?'
And I think that one of the most fun things, and probably one of the most successful things my most recent vids have done is play up that gap between literal meaning and the image on the screen. The difference between the lyric and the image can be generative of such richness.
Perhaps I watch vids differently, but I really feel that in many ways I never did develop beyond "let's throw clips at this thing that are vaguely associated!", I just got better at using the song to force those clips into a story? By far my most popular vid is essentially an insane collage of BSG clips about everything ever along under the umbrella of "Laura and the Cylons and Politics," with a framing device. But the lyrics are so weird and tell such a strong story that it forces the vid into a shape even though my original process was just to try to come up with as many cool lyrical associations using as many different moments as possible. After that I did do some cleaning up, narratively, in terms of my choices, but really comparatively little.
Though I have to admit, with some of my other vids that never would have worked. I've never had to be so narratively aware as when I made a minor character oriented vid, for instance, working with very limited footage, and wow did that make my head hurt. It was not at all what I was used to.
As
Um. If this post had a point is was that I don't think you should panic about being a lyrics-oriented vidder. I honestly believe most of us are and the comment to which you are replying was a comment on using lyrics that aren't immediately literally clear in the context of the show lazily rather than working closely with the lyrics? (Though obviously, it's not my comment so I apologise if I misinterpreted!)
no subject
Date: 2008-10-12 05:21 pm (UTC)I look forward to watching everyone's vids and becoming more about the figurative/deeper connections for future works!
no subject
Date: 2008-10-12 08:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-10-12 08:49 pm (UTC)*hands you a membership card* Yuh. Welcome to the world of beginning vidding. I have spent two years angsting about that! Because the one thing I saw hammered home time and time again in vid meta was 'don't be too literal!!!' And one day I've got a whole post in me on that subject because you know what? Literalism has a place. And yes, a lot of beginner vids do rely (too) heavily on literalism and it doesn't always work--but I think that's not because 'literalism = bad' but because they don't use it as one tool in a repertoire of tools. Does that make sense? I think if you pick and choose where you're literal and if you are literal to a purpose then it can be very powerful.
Regardless, being lyrics-oriented doesn't mean being literal necessarily. I'm very lyrics oriented as a vidder too (word person!) and ok, maybe I still am a little more literal than some vidders, but I have made my peace with that and I like my vids, damn it! :) And I think you can be very in tune with lyrics and tease meanings out of them without being literal.
Also I heart literalism in *other* people's vids--when used cleverly. It can be comedic, it can anchor an otherwise amorphous vid, it can be pointed, it can be used to draw attention to a metaphor... it's an important skill. But it's like any narrative choice--if it's the only trick in your bag then it will limit your vidding.
So this comment has two points:
1. I don't think being 'lyrics-oriented' necessarily means your vidding is 'literal'.
2. Literalism has a place!