Kind of...

[bop_radar]

... loving Russell. Does this mean 'Go and watch Supernatural!' is now an insult?! :D :D :D I could say it with such a lovely sneer. Really! ;)

I also rather like this quote (re. claiming Ianto's death was anti-gay): 'It's rather like children picking up nursery blocks and waving them in the air but having no idea what it entails.'

Ah yes. How often I have felt that way in fandom.

I do like it when show creators stick to their guns and tell a good story despite a screaming fanbase calling for their blood. That said, there is danger in arrogantly assuming your fanbase is always wrong. Russell's an interesting study to me now, since he has at times been everything I hate in a creator (self-indulgent, letting his own issues leak through into the show), and at other times (i.e. Children of Earth) has been so hard-core true to the story he's telling and the characters he writes. Let's hope the arrogance displayed in that article continues to be used for the Power of Good! ;)

Comments

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I can't really think of any other show I've watched that has ever gone that far with anything. Can you?
No, I can't, and that was one of the reasons I found it intense and amazing--it went against all my expectations and it's so rare that TV does this. I found it really brave, but I see that it also plays as shocking and at a certain point can be overload for people. It wasn't for me... I don't know what that says about me?! Maybe it's because I read a lot of very full-on books and watch a lot of movies that are far braver than TV. TV often feels so tame to me, and I liked them throwing everything to the wind for once.

well, I had an extremely emotional reaction to Ianto dying at first...but then when everything else happened, that stopped. I just felt indifferent/bored and there was a lot of eye rolling going on
HA! That's amazing. I had the exact opposite reaction. Ianto's death was the one really flat moment in the last two eps. I actually LOL'd aloud during it (thanks to Barrowman's acting) and I couldn't wait for it to be over. SO ridiculously over the top! To me it felt like the one moment of the sort of indulgence I'm used to from Torchwood and Russell in the whole show--and it nearly threw me out. I think it was the support cast--Frobisher, Lois, etc--that drew me back in.

I think they did fit more with the tone of the show, which I think needs to be remembered
I do think the tone of the show changed in CoE. I feel like CoE is a standalone piece that can be enjoyed as scifi, regardless of whether you've previously seen the series or not. Personally I found the (admittedly very dark) tone appealing, but I agree that it did not match what came before and I hear you on it not being a gradual or subtle shift into the new area--they just went full on for it.

I think I wanted Ianto's death to have more "meaning" than it really did.
I think that's natural. Ianto was a very likeable character. He was my favourite too, though that's not saying much as I never liked the series. I think the main thing I personally wanted from his ending was a bit more about the kids--I liked the poignancy of Jack saving Ianto's niece and nephew but not his own grandson, for instance. I could have done with a whole lot less woobie!Jack too. ;)

will hurt the future of the show greatly
Well to be honest I thought the show was over, and thought it was a fab way to go out with a bang. I think if it continues (and I gather it is continuing?!) that will seriously weaken the impact of CoE--which could be a good thing for you!

It makes me feel better about COE as a whole to know that someone really did appreciate it for what it was.
I was in raptures--it's one of the best bits of television I've seen all year. Which probably makes me a very sick puppy! ;) One of the things I liked is that things never really seem to be at stake in the Who verse. So I liked seeing that same universe suffer some really fucked up shit for once. I think a lot of it was the surprise factor--I never expected this show to go that far. And that same surprise/shock that delighted me turned you (and the majority of fans I know) off it. So I know I'm in the minority and I'm surprised myself at the novelty of Russell creating something that played perfectly to my taste!

[starryeyedmagic.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's because I read a lot of very full-on books and watch a lot of movies that are far braver than TV. TV often feels so tame to me, and I liked them throwing everything to the wind for once.
Even though I discuss this far more with my RL friends than my LJ ones, I'm actually more of a film buff than a TV fan. So I agree that sometimes TV can feel tame. But I don't know, I think if you're going to be that dark (especially on a show that has previously been more "amusing" than anything else) you have to walk a very fine line. It's extremely tricky. So I can't really applaud them for being bold since it didn't bring out the emotions in me that it should have.

Ianto's death was the one really flat moment in the last two eps.
I don't really mean the scene specifically (LOL Barrowman's acting was totally ridiculous). I just meant the mere fact that Ianto died at all. If I were reading a book of COE and I read the line "And then Ianto died" I would have to put it down and sob for like 5mins, hahaha. I was completley unspoiled for Ianto's death and really didn't expect it. So the second it happened I got really emotional because of my massive love for the character. Not even Barrowman's over the top acting could have prevented that. haha.

Frankly, I almost wished they had focused on it more in ep 5. LOL I NEEDED TO MOURN HIM. I don't care if it was indulgent. Ianto was the heart and soul of the show (for me), his death was a HUGE deal.

I feel like CoE is a standalone piece that can be enjoyed as scifi, regardless of whether you've previously seen the series or not.
You know, now that you say that I think it might have worked much better as a standalone. You know, with entirely new characters. Like if it wasn't Torchwood at all. Because then Ianto's death wouldn't have been so overpowering. It would have still been unnecessarily dark, but I would have been able to view it objectively.

Although, at the same time the reason I watch any tv show is for the characters. The characters are the heart of the story, if you don't care about them then everything rings hollow.
lol but maybe hollow characters are necessary to enjoy such intense darkness.

Well to be honest I thought the show was over, and thought it was a fab way to go out with a bang. I think if it continues (and I gather it is continuing?!) that will seriously weaken the impact of CoE--which could be a good thing for you!
RTD said at Comic-con that he wants it to continue and thinks it probably will (although nothing is official yet).

I'll probably watch just to check it out but gosh, the idea of the Jack and Gwen show bores me. lol. But maybe there will be some new characters to get attached to? Although, do I even want to put myself through the ringer again if I do get a attached and something like COE happens again? haha I don't know.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I got really emotional because of my massive love for the character. Not even Barrowman's over the top acting could have prevented that
Hee! I see what you're saying. I do know how passionate character attachment can influence a viewing--I don't have it about anyone in Torchwood but I sure have it about, say, Lee in BSG, where regardless of how brilliant the plot was, or how ridiculous the writing around it, I'd be a screaming, crying mess if he died. Favourites are favourites.

I think it might have worked much better as a standalone. You know, with entirely new characters
*nods* I didn't care who the characters were. Probably only Jack was the one I enjoyed as part of a character continuum--because this was the side of his character I always wanted explored. But the identity of the rest didn't matter to me at all.

But I don't want you to think that means I didn't care about the characters! I really, really did--it's just it was built very quickly, and I was really invested in Lois and Frobisher most of all, and partly in Jack's daughter. I also really liked Ianto's sister. Their plots were the ones I got most into and I found some of them (Frobisher's!) heartbreaking but effective. Obviously my attachment to them couldn't be anywhere near as strong as yours for Ianto, because yours had been built up over a longer period, so the two don't equate. But I disagree that the characters shown in CoE were 'hollow' or that character investment wasn't part of my enjoyment. In fact, the darker it is, the more I need strong characterisation, otherwise it would feel gratuitous to me. I realise it DID feel so to you--so maybe none of the characters felt real to you?--but it honestly worked for me--it had a kind of reverse psychology effect on me where I became really sympathetic to Gwen (who irks me) and Jack by the end of the show. They were flawed, yes, but that made me feel for them as 'human'.

I don't know if I'll go back either. I seriously doubt they'll top CoE for me because i don't think it's typical of the stories they tell on Torchwood--it definitely felt like Russell just lobbed up and did a whole new thing with it in S3. Though I've also read commentary from fans who feel there is more continuity with the rest of Torchwood than I (or you) do. So who knows?

[starryeyedmagic.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not saying that the characters in COE felt hollow. Quite the opposite. I just meant that I may have been able to be more...rational about the whole thing if I didn't have an overwhelming attachment to Ianto. I almost wish they were more hollow.

If all the characters were brand new I would be fond of Ianto I'm sure, and I would have been sad when he died. But I would have shed a tear or 2 and then moved on and wanted to know how they were going to save the world. I would have been more interested in Jack's journey.

But since I've had such intense love for Ianto for many years I felt rather gutted when he died. There was even a moment when I thought, "lol why bother to save a world that Ianto's not in?! What's the point anymore?"

Because as I said in an earlier comment, your audience only cares about the fate of the world because of the characters that live in that world. Jack can't die so there's no point worrying about him. And like you, I felt more sympathy toward Gwen than I had before so I'd be sad about her and Rhys dying, but I could get over that since I never liked Gwen much before this.
So...if they're not saving the world directly for Ianto why should I even care? (Even though it was nice that they tried to save his niece and nephew for him, that's not even remotely enough).

lol this is the problem with killing off so much of your cast. If Tosh and Owen were still around I'd at least care about whether they lived or not.

When I started watching episode 5 all I wanted to do was mourn Ianto. And then they just hit me with every other horrible thing that anyone could possibly imagine. And I was just like "LOL JUST STOP! This is ridiculous!"
I couldn't really handle everything else happening because I so upset over Ianto. I mean, it was overkill to begin with, but it was even worse since my state of mind was seriously FRAGILE! haha.

It was like beating a dead horse. The dead horse which was me. I felt so beat down that I just stopped feeling or caring and became indifferent and started finding things that were supposed to be serious...funny. And not just because of Barrowman's acting.

I also think it may have helped if the episodes aired a week apart. Since it was literally the next day, Ianto's death was still fresh in my mind. Maybe I would have been more into the episode if I had some perspective?

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

The dead horse which was me.
Oh noes! :(( What a terrible feeling! I don't have much to add (having hashed it all out above!) except I agree that the fast airings added to the intensity, whether for better or worse--I can imagine if it went sour for you that it would have been hard to process all that so fast. I know I've sometimes been grateful for a week or two's processing-time when TV's been really full on (especially in a killing-my-favourite-character way!!).