Katee and Kara/Lee
May. 22nd, 2007 08:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
bop_radarKatee Sackhoff was interviewed at the Vulkon Women of SciFi event (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
proggrrl has posted links to video interviews from the event). One of the comments Katee made really threw me for a loop. I've been resisting posting about this all day, but I don't seem able to let it go.
So Katee says Kara loves Sam more than she loves Lee. This came as a real shock to me. I respect Sam's importance in Kara's life and I have no doubt that she loves him. I also would fully understand if Katee expressed the sentiment that Sam's healthier for Kara (I personally disagree, but it's understandable that Katee would be in the mindset of her character to this extent). But that she loves him more? I'm shocked. Season 3 was the first time I felt I really saw Kara's love for Lee shine through--in UB they seemed to be playing that Lee was really 'the one' after all, that Kara had only fled from the relationship out of fear and that she'd been drawn back to connect with him despite herself. Then, in Maelstrom, we saw her express her wistfulness that they would never be more than hotshot pilot and CAG. Lee was the last person she spoke to before death and the first person she spoke to on return. It all seemed to fit, but apparently that wasn't the way Kara saw it.
I've seen a lot of people shrugging off Katee's comments comfortably, and it's true that the actor's take on the character is not the be-all and end-all of what we'll see on the show. However, there are a couple of reasons why I find it hard not to take Katee's comment seriously:
- Firstly, Katee herself says she knows Starbuck better than anyone. The actors do seem to 'own' their characters in this way on the show. Jamie certainly does, and I always respect what he has to say about his character. So it goes against my instincts not to show Katee that same courtesy, not to defer to her opinion as well.
- Several people have mentioned Katee changing her story from interview to interview. However, I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't realise that saying Kara loves Sam more wouldn't be a big deal to a lot of fans. Furthermore, Katee fleshes it out quite a lot. She mentions being a little shocked by Sam's 'you're not the first' call to Lee--but not, as I was, shocked because I thought Lee was actually really significant to Kara, but shocked because she 'really really loves this guy (Sam)'. The implication is 'Kara wouldn't do that--she cares about Sam too much--it's only Lee she's a bit confused about, but she's sorted that out now too'.
-wisteria_ has an excellent post which explains why she's OK with Katee's comment and one of the things she points out is that Katee often expresses what Kara's mindset is at a given point in time. That seems true of what I've seen of Katee's interviews. However, if so, I misread Kara in the later half of this season (again!). And it does worry me that this is Kara's mindset going into Season 4. And this is where my Lee-protectiveness comes out...
Lee has lost everything in the later half of the season--his relationships have fallen apart or devolved even further into animosity than they were before, he's given up his role as CAG, he's lost Kara. He finds some core inner strength, it's true, but the only real shining light at the end of the season for Lee was Kara's resurrection. If not for that, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Lee push himself recklessly into that Cylon battle and either get killed or come back but get no acknowledgment for his efforts and return to the same lonely position he was in before he dived for the viper once again.
Dee's left Lee, but Kara has Sam to come back to--and apparently that's exactly what she wants to do. Presumably, then, Season 4 will be about Kara finding out Sam's a Cylon and struggling with that. It's the final season--that's not exactly going to allow much time for her to backflip again and suddenly decide it's Lee she really loves.
Just the other day,queenofthorns observed that most K/L shippers seem to be Kara fans (if they have to choose one character) rather than Lee fans. I count myself in the minority who'd choose Lee. I do love Kara, but she baffles and frustrates me, whereas my love for Lee stands independent of the ship. So now I'm just clinging to the hope that Lee gets lots of opportunity to show just how strong and awesome he can be in Season 4, sans Dee, sans Kara. (Though why they had Dee break up with him, if they're not going to get Kara and Lee together, I really don't know--she has no other plot! Why couldn't he keep Dee if Kara doesn't care? *pouts* They really love tearing Lee to pieces.)
The other thing about Katee's comments that I found truly baffling was the idea that Kara's love for Sam is more adult, that their relationship is more mature. Quote:
She’s known Lee forever, they’ve been friends forever, and I think she’s confusing that for what real adult companionship and love is.
Hmmm. This perplexes me at all sorts of levels. Citing the friendship suggests that it's romantic and/or sexual feelings that Kara's lacking for Lee--but I don't think there's any doubt that she's quite happy to frak him, and she seemed totally swept away on New Caprica (albeit briefly). On the other hand, she mentions 'companionship', which is a good point. It's true that there's a whole range of issues that Kara has that Lee doesn't know about, and she shuts him out of a lot, so although they are friends they don't have that kind of total intimacy. But I don't think she has that with Sam either. Sam offers her no-strings-attached sex but that's hardly companionship. Some would argue this has allowed Kara to open up to Sam in her own time--there may be a case in that seeing as she did discuss her childhood abuse with him in Maelstrom. But she also shuts him down and pushes him away quite coldly as soon as she's done with him (usually straight after sex). I'd hardly call that a mature relationship. And I'd be very uncomfortable with Sam allowing that to continue on a longterm basis--it's gone on long enough--if Kara really sees her love for Sam as 'real' and 'adult' then she needs to make it a proper marriage. There's got to be some give and take. I see Kara take from Sam, but I don't see any give. So saying her love for him shows greater maturity than her love for Lee makes little sense to me.
Anyway, since this set my teeth on edge, I'm burying myself in loving Lee and Lee alone. So you can expect even more determined pimping of how great Lee is from me! *plots Lee spam* For starters, this has given me more motivation than ever to make that Lee character study vid. *g*
On the other hand, I'd like to say a big thank you to the Kara fangirls who did their utmost to talk moe out of my tailspin to day: especiallylatteaddict and daybreak777. Really, I do appreciate it! Even if I'm still not convinced. ;-)
And last but not least, today also saw the launch of![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
sasa_hq or 'Starbuck and Apollo Shippers Anonymous', for those of us who need support for that addiction... to quote the userinfo: 'Rather than trying to curb your obsession, SASA specializes in channelling it in healthy ways.' *lol*
Oh and someone needs to come over here and talkdionusia and I out of editing Sam out of our fannish creations as revenge. ;-)
proggrrl has posted links to video interviews from the event). One of the comments Katee made really threw me for a loop. I've been resisting posting about this all day, but I don't seem able to let it go.So Katee says Kara loves Sam more than she loves Lee. This came as a real shock to me. I respect Sam's importance in Kara's life and I have no doubt that she loves him. I also would fully understand if Katee expressed the sentiment that Sam's healthier for Kara (I personally disagree, but it's understandable that Katee would be in the mindset of her character to this extent). But that she loves him more? I'm shocked. Season 3 was the first time I felt I really saw Kara's love for Lee shine through--in UB they seemed to be playing that Lee was really 'the one' after all, that Kara had only fled from the relationship out of fear and that she'd been drawn back to connect with him despite herself. Then, in Maelstrom, we saw her express her wistfulness that they would never be more than hotshot pilot and CAG. Lee was the last person she spoke to before death and the first person she spoke to on return. It all seemed to fit, but apparently that wasn't the way Kara saw it.
I've seen a lot of people shrugging off Katee's comments comfortably, and it's true that the actor's take on the character is not the be-all and end-all of what we'll see on the show. However, there are a couple of reasons why I find it hard not to take Katee's comment seriously:
- Firstly, Katee herself says she knows Starbuck better than anyone. The actors do seem to 'own' their characters in this way on the show. Jamie certainly does, and I always respect what he has to say about his character. So it goes against my instincts not to show Katee that same courtesy, not to defer to her opinion as well.
- Several people have mentioned Katee changing her story from interview to interview. However, I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't realise that saying Kara loves Sam more wouldn't be a big deal to a lot of fans. Furthermore, Katee fleshes it out quite a lot. She mentions being a little shocked by Sam's 'you're not the first' call to Lee--but not, as I was, shocked because I thought Lee was actually really significant to Kara, but shocked because she 'really really loves this guy (Sam)'. The implication is 'Kara wouldn't do that--she cares about Sam too much--it's only Lee she's a bit confused about, but she's sorted that out now too'.
-
wisteria_ has an excellent post which explains why she's OK with Katee's comment and one of the things she points out is that Katee often expresses what Kara's mindset is at a given point in time. That seems true of what I've seen of Katee's interviews. However, if so, I misread Kara in the later half of this season (again!). And it does worry me that this is Kara's mindset going into Season 4. And this is where my Lee-protectiveness comes out...Lee has lost everything in the later half of the season--his relationships have fallen apart or devolved even further into animosity than they were before, he's given up his role as CAG, he's lost Kara. He finds some core inner strength, it's true, but the only real shining light at the end of the season for Lee was Kara's resurrection. If not for that, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Lee push himself recklessly into that Cylon battle and either get killed or come back but get no acknowledgment for his efforts and return to the same lonely position he was in before he dived for the viper once again.
Dee's left Lee, but Kara has Sam to come back to--and apparently that's exactly what she wants to do. Presumably, then, Season 4 will be about Kara finding out Sam's a Cylon and struggling with that. It's the final season--that's not exactly going to allow much time for her to backflip again and suddenly decide it's Lee she really loves.
Just the other day,
queenofthorns observed that most K/L shippers seem to be Kara fans (if they have to choose one character) rather than Lee fans. I count myself in the minority who'd choose Lee. I do love Kara, but she baffles and frustrates me, whereas my love for Lee stands independent of the ship. So now I'm just clinging to the hope that Lee gets lots of opportunity to show just how strong and awesome he can be in Season 4, sans Dee, sans Kara. (Though why they had Dee break up with him, if they're not going to get Kara and Lee together, I really don't know--she has no other plot! Why couldn't he keep Dee if Kara doesn't care? *pouts* They really love tearing Lee to pieces.)The other thing about Katee's comments that I found truly baffling was the idea that Kara's love for Sam is more adult, that their relationship is more mature. Quote:
She’s known Lee forever, they’ve been friends forever, and I think she’s confusing that for what real adult companionship and love is.
Hmmm. This perplexes me at all sorts of levels. Citing the friendship suggests that it's romantic and/or sexual feelings that Kara's lacking for Lee--but I don't think there's any doubt that she's quite happy to frak him, and she seemed totally swept away on New Caprica (albeit briefly). On the other hand, she mentions 'companionship', which is a good point. It's true that there's a whole range of issues that Kara has that Lee doesn't know about, and she shuts him out of a lot, so although they are friends they don't have that kind of total intimacy. But I don't think she has that with Sam either. Sam offers her no-strings-attached sex but that's hardly companionship. Some would argue this has allowed Kara to open up to Sam in her own time--there may be a case in that seeing as she did discuss her childhood abuse with him in Maelstrom. But she also shuts him down and pushes him away quite coldly as soon as she's done with him (usually straight after sex). I'd hardly call that a mature relationship. And I'd be very uncomfortable with Sam allowing that to continue on a longterm basis--it's gone on long enough--if Kara really sees her love for Sam as 'real' and 'adult' then she needs to make it a proper marriage. There's got to be some give and take. I see Kara take from Sam, but I don't see any give. So saying her love for him shows greater maturity than her love for Lee makes little sense to me.
Anyway, since this set my teeth on edge, I'm burying myself in loving Lee and Lee alone. So you can expect even more determined pimping of how great Lee is from me! *plots Lee spam* For starters, this has given me more motivation than ever to make that Lee character study vid. *g*
On the other hand, I'd like to say a big thank you to the Kara fangirls who did their utmost to talk moe out of my tailspin to day: especially
latteaddict and daybreak777. Really, I do appreciate it! Even if I'm still not convinced. ;-) And last but not least, today also saw the launch of
sasa_hq or 'Starbuck and Apollo Shippers Anonymous', for those of us who need support for that addiction... to quote the userinfo: 'Rather than trying to curb your obsession, SASA specializes in channelling it in healthy ways.' *lol*Oh and someone needs to come over here and talk
dionusia and I out of editing Sam out of our fannish creations as revenge. ;-)
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Re: I'm waiting for soup to cook and chatty, :-)
Date: 2007-05-26 12:09 pm (UTC)Poor Lee was in a mini state of shock as Kara made her move. I absolutely love the look on his face as she approaches. I think the TWOP reviewer described it as "And yes, Apollo, there is a Santa Claus"
because that's how Lee lives in the gap between his words and his actions.
so beautifully put! And you are right, Lee did see it as more or hoped/wanted it to be more, despite his earlier proclamation about futures being overrated. But as usual, Kara was too wrapped up in herself to see the subtlety of Lee's words versus behaviour. The writers only give Kara moments of awareness when it suits them, like she's been aware of Helo's feelings about Sharon but seemed completely dense about what was happening with Lee. But considering her Leegasm with Baltar, Kara's been aware of her own feelings and I'm fairly certain that Lee's hostile reaction to her in KLG1 and refusal to accept her apology was the moment she deliberately tried to put Lee out of her mind.
~~I bet Kara saw her bright shiny future reflected in his eyes.~~
Really? Because it felt like what she saw was an overly emotionally invested idiot--who she rejected.
Yes, really! Kara totally panicked and shoved Lee away as fast as she could. If it was Hotdog with her and he made moony eyes, Kara would've laughed or mocked him. But this was Lee and everything is intense between them. My mother always says that the louder you shout the more guilty you are; and that's what I saw Kara doing. The more emphatic she got with Lee that there was nothing between them; the more I wanted to shake her for telling such lies. And going on the theory that we can change our old opinions based on new information, if you were unsure of Kara's feelings back then, you now have UB as proof that she's been in love with Lee for a long time. Naked Kara shouting out her love was the proof the doubters needed. Just like Lee shouting out his love was the proof people like me needed. Ron made sure that despite whatever else happened we all got that point loud and clear. Kara did not suddenly fall in love with Lee the day of the groundbreaking. And maybe she was in spectacular denial about her feelings in Scar, but I bet by the time she shot him, she finally knew her own feelings. But by then it was already too late. Lee and Dee were together and planning vacations.
Ok, but 'hung up' sounds a lot like Kara speak for 'in love'.
If I have to concede that 'hung up' means love for Kara, then you have to admit Lee saying to Dee "I'm in love with you" means he is in love with her. Otherwise, let me convince you Kara did not mean love and I'll let you convince me Lee never meant love either. :)
And you surely must see that mentioning anyone else at that moment, when they were already in the bedroom (so to speak) was going to be a punch in the gut to Lee
I never really focused on that aspect before, but you are right. Kara was being cruel and insensitive (because we now know Lee was madly in love with her) but at the time I had my doubts about Lee's feelings being anything more than friendship so I guess I didn't see him as being particularly hurt by what she said. But now I can see it!
isn't it tough being a faithful fangirl? :) :)
Re: I'm waiting for soup to cook and chatty, :-)
Date: 2007-05-26 12:33 pm (UTC)the louder you shout the more guilty you are.
Ohh, nice line! And it works so well for both of them. :-) *thinks of the airlock call*
Naked Kara shouting out her love was the proof the doubters needed. Just like Lee shouting out his love was the proof people like me needed. Ron made sure that despite whatever else happened we all got that point loud and clear.
Hee! Yeah, it's actually ridiculous just how overt it was made in that moment. Not just text, but SCREAMED TEXT! But then RDM damn well needed to given how he tore them apart again immediately. I was so sure Kara wouldn't do it. When Lee asked her to get up I was muttering 'omg, no, no, don't ask her, oh, Lee, what are you DOING to yourself'? But she did and then she smiled so sweetly at him when he took her face in his hands... AWWWW!! But I was still very puzzled as to what her feelings were back in Scar... I kind of figured her feelings for Lee sort of took her by surprise once they hooked up on New Cap, that they weren't very thought through, that in part they were because she had commitment jitters with Anders.
I bet by the time she shot him, she finally knew her own feelings.
Wow, again, I would never come to that reading at all. I thought Kara's feelings about shooting him were far more just general guilt about being a screw-up and also HUGE angst about having 'killed' or nearly killed both of the Admiral's sons now... I guess I saw her distress as more to do with Adama than Lee because I thought she'd put a lid on those feelings already. It's way more angsty though if she DID have feelings for him. Wow, I'll have to go watch her shoot him again...
If I have to concede that 'hung up' means love for Kara, then you have to admit Lee saying to Dee "I'm in love with you" means he is in love with her.
There be no logic to that statement!
Otherwise, let me convince you Kara did not mean love and I'll let you convince me Lee never meant love either. :)
Ohh, now THERE'S a happyful trade if ever I heard one! DEAL!
But now I can see it!
Yay! Yeah, it was the worst thing she could have said. Something about him or them would have been better in a way just because Lee could have struggled with it, tried to overcome it, or gone into the self-flagellation he's so good at and which he finds familiar. And I know his call about Kara always loving dead guys was bitchy and horrible, but it says a lot about what Lee's feelings were there. It shows he was thinking of Zak, that he's assumed that one of the reasons nothing's happened between them is because Zak was and is more loved by Kara than he could ever be. And he knows that, so he hasn't made a move. But to have her make a move and then bring someone else entirely up... well, that's even more painful. Zak, Lee would angstily understand. But anyone else is unfathomable--Lee jumps straight from 'Kara's hung up on someone other than me' to 'Kara would rather sleep with/be with ANYONE than me'. We saw him make this leap, 'catastrophise' like this after she slept with Gaius as well. (It's a flawed thought pattern typical in people with depression, btw.) To him, it's logical but it doesn't hold up in reality. But it's very hard to argue with because at an emotional level it makes sense to Lee/in Lee's mind. So he just strikes back at her because he's so hurt. (Frakked up Pilots!)
isn't it tough being a faithful fangirl? :) :)
Tough, but REWARDING! :-)