Lee Love Week lists
Dec. 4th, 2008 05:47 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
bop_radarI have a problem. I cannot stop working! *stares at clock disconsolately*
But![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
dionusia has declared this Lee Love Week and I am determined to participate in this most wonderful of causes!
My only problem was coming up with a NEW way to describe Lee's awesomeness, given that I spent most of my time in BSG fandom boring you all senseless on that very subject. But, I can do it! With lists. :) Warning for insane bias and fangirling ahead (and spoilers for 4.0 but no 4.5 please!).
I'm with Jamie--I think the BSG writers didn't love Lee as much as they should have. I have no idea why they didn't, because to me he seems like wonderful material from both a character and plot/narrative perspective. But just because the show has over- or under-used the following, or just used them clumsily, doesn't mean that fandom's creators (writers, vidders, etc) shouldn't exploit the following aspects of Lee's brilliance. I've focused here on the ways Lee contrasts or connects with other characters because there is so much material there for conflict (and eventual resolution).
1. Inter-generational conflict/contrast. Ok, yes, Lee's easily teased for his daddy issues, but having a father-son relationship on the show is powerful material. It's all in how you use it! And personally Lee's daddy issues were one of the first things I fell for. :p
2. Sibling rivalry. Adama considers Kara a daughter, even if she never quite made it to official sister-in-law to Lee. That gives them lots to play with, even without a romance plot. And as it turns out Adama likes to keep his doors open where surrogate offspring are concerned, so Lee's got to stay on his toes!
3. Rebel with a cause! More on this later, but suffice to say that the combination of 'principled' and 'willing to mutinyat inappropriate times' = plot candy!
4. The second most awesome pilot. Lee has no problem playing secondto a hot, assertive woman, and he does it so very well. He's good enough to be able to have competitive banter with Starbuck, but not good enough to ever beat her completely, which is just how it should be. That's actually very useful. Having only ONE hotshot pilot leaves things a bit desperate should Kara ever be out of action. Also, if she didn't have someone to riff off, it would be WAY less fun in the sky.
5. No grand destiny. Lee may yet be given one. I don't know. But I do know that he's always been played as a character who does not believe in his personal destiny and/or 'specialness'. And no, I'm not contrasting him to Kara here. I'm thinking more of Gaius. I don't know how deliberate it is but the show has occasionally produced episodes that invite us to compare the two figures--Gaius, so desperate to believe that there's something 'special' that redeems him, or some mystic destiny guiding his hand; and Lee, who would baulk at such an idea, who believes in free will, rationality and the pragmatic logical decision. I'm a bit of a sucker for that contrast (especially since I'm with Lee all the way on this!).
6. Democracy's advocate. Someone needs to be! (understatement!) The Lee-Laura relationship is obviously the biggest card here, but Lee-Zarek is part of the landscape as well. Much has been written elsewhere (*nods toasta77*) on why Laura needs someone like Lee around, why that works so well--whether they are in agreement or dispute. Lee's ability to argue, to think deeply about the issues and to weigh decisions appropriately is one of his most useful attributes--and through his character the viewer or reader can follow a debate or issue from a different angle.
7. Leadership qualities. I maintain Lee demonstrated leadership qualities from the start--but I also like that he developed them and he grew more confident in this role over time. Characters should grow--and Lee did. Lee's capacity for leadership is, one would think, infinitely useful, and no matter how clunkily it came about it was good to see that recognised in his short stint as Prez.
8. Ability to empathise. I'd argue this is part of what makes him a good leader, but I wanted to single it out because it is pretty damn rare in the BSG cast. Like many of the characters, Lee has had his fair share of trauma and he's battled nihilism, depression and other inner demons for a long time. He knows how hard it is to get up and keep going, even when you maybe don't believe it'll work out. Yes, sometimes he is trapped in his own pain and can't hear the voices of those closest to him, but often Lee's capacity for compassion towards others and his personal experiences combine to make him a very empathetic person. With so many characters emotionally and physically bruised and battered at this point in time that seems to me to be a very important attribute. It also means he doesn't hold grudges with people like Helo or Sam, even though they've crossed each other in the past.
9. Not the Cylons' biggest fan. I stuck this down the bottom of my list as it's a bit controversial. ;) But personally I love that Lee (or SOMEONE) considered annhiliating the Cylons once and for all. Because if offered that option in the middle of a war that could end in human extinction, you would have to consider it. I also like that Lee works (or worked) well as a contrast to Helo, the Cylons' human advocate.
10. Hotness! Let us not forget it! For it is most useful to have a character that looks extremely hot in the following circumstances: in a flight suit, relaxing in the mess, sleeveless, drunk, in a suit, in a red shirt, in a towel, naked, in bed with other characters, in arguments with other characters (particularly on steamy algae planets), when frustrated, when elated, even when he's emo... such flexibility of hotness has got to be admired. AND USED!!!
1. Lee/Kara. I'm biased, obviously. ;) But Lee/Kara offers the attraction of opposites, family politics/history and angst (Zak!), grand destinies, tragedy kinks, death and rebirth, mutual saving-of-each-other (multiple times), the frustration of mistiming and misunderstanding, as well as sparkling chemistry, banter and arm porn. Not to mention boxing, drunken kisses and declarations of love.
2. Lee/Laura. I still can't see what Laura sees in Bill. Sorry Adama/Roslin people! I'd pick the son, any day. And I really like Lee's relationship with Laura. She can talk politics with him, they can disagree and still respect one another, he empathises with her and understands what she's trying to balance. And 'lady's in charge' is probably my favourite line from the mini--the fact that Lee accepted Laura so fast in that role made him infinitely great in my eyes. And if he's to play her successor the relationship has an extra layer of pathos.
3. Lee/Kendra. A ship I'd like to see WAY more of. Kendra is potentially a fabulous character to pair Lee with because they have a lot in common--Razor paralleled their journeys. But Kendra also has some Kara-like attributes and the differences in her circumstances and Lee's would make for very interesting material to explore. I don't think theirs would be an easy relationship (whether romantic or purely as Commander and 2IC) but it would be engaging. Also Kara/Lee/Kendra would have been a Triangle of Awesome (as opposed to a Quadrangle of Doom!).
4. Lee/Dee. Yeah, look, not my favourite ship because I look to fiction for escapism from reality and Lee/Dee is a very 'real life' ship to me. But it does show some attributes of Lee's that I like, including his imperfections. Love is a struggle for Lee and he doesn't always understand it--he thinks he can will it into being by sheer determination. And in real life? He probably could. (But she might still walk out on him anyway.) Something about the pathos of the Lee/Dee ship does tug at my heartstrings--and I think it's the idea of two people trying to snatch some happiness in less than ideal circumstances. It's also the ship that says grand romance is not all it's cut out to be--and that's a valid message.
5. Lee/Helo. Heh heh heh. Um. Totally there for the HOT factor. No, not just that! The potential greatness of Lee/Helo lies in the fact that there is both mutual respect and some rivalry/angst between these two. Lee had a hard time accepting Athena and he disagrees politically with Helo's stance on the Cylons (or did), but they totally respected each other in their roles within the military and were shown as buddies occasionally (random gym scene yay!). As best friend to Kara, Helo's also in an interesting position to observe Lee's rocky love life. Can't buy them as a longterm ship but totally appropriate for one-night-stands. ;)
6. Lee/Racetrack. She brought him back to life! Racetrack is an interesting character to explore in fic because we get only glimpses of her in canon. A pairing that could potentially win me.
7. Lee/Sam. Has been banished far down my personal list due to Sam's complete hopelessness as a character in my eyes in 4.0. But I do understand why people ship them, even if I don't myself. It's the arms, right? No? Lee's compassion for Sam following Kara's death was terrific--and the grounds for the grace with which they treated one another on Kara's return to the fleet. I like that the show didn't stick with adolescent jealousy and rivalry but showed the two men united in grief and then joy instead--and I can see why that's a big turn-on for Kara fans. ;)
8. Lee/Ellen. Because it would be amusing and porny at the same time. Lee discombulated by unwanted female attention is a pretty wonderful thing and there should be more of it.
9. Lee/Shevon. Yeah, yeah, I'm the only person in the world who wants to read fic about them. *ducks thrown tomatoes* But I kind of liked the fucked-up-ed-ness of their relationship and thought she had balls for dumping him after he saved Paya. I wouldn't want to live there forever, but I am kind of fascinated by what was going on there for Lee--particularly the desire to protect others, and the secret yearning for a family and 'normalcy' (tragically transparently unreal).
10. Lee/pregnant Caprican girlfriend. It may have been a bit 'pasted on yay!' but Lee's history with women is intriguing, especially in a longer look at his fear of intimacy, and the way his commitment issues war with his desperation to be someone's somebody.
Feel free to add to the list or reorder it at will! :)
Since I've run out of time today, this post might have to be the first of several. And be warned that the lists may get crazier over time... Aww, I've missed talking about Lee!
But
dionusia has declared this Lee Love Week and I am determined to participate in this most wonderful of causes!My only problem was coming up with a NEW way to describe Lee's awesomeness, given that I spent most of my time in BSG fandom boring you all senseless on that very subject. But, I can do it! With lists. :) Warning for insane bias and fangirling ahead (and spoilers for 4.0 but no 4.5 please!).
I'm with Jamie--I think the BSG writers didn't love Lee as much as they should have. I have no idea why they didn't, because to me he seems like wonderful material from both a character and plot/narrative perspective. But just because the show has over- or under-used the following, or just used them clumsily, doesn't mean that fandom's creators (writers, vidders, etc) shouldn't exploit the following aspects of Lee's brilliance. I've focused here on the ways Lee contrasts or connects with other characters because there is so much material there for conflict (and eventual resolution).
1. Inter-generational conflict/contrast. Ok, yes, Lee's easily teased for his daddy issues, but having a father-son relationship on the show is powerful material. It's all in how you use it! And personally Lee's daddy issues were one of the first things I fell for. :p
2. Sibling rivalry. Adama considers Kara a daughter, even if she never quite made it to official sister-in-law to Lee. That gives them lots to play with, even without a romance plot. And as it turns out Adama likes to keep his doors open where surrogate offspring are concerned, so Lee's got to stay on his toes!
3. Rebel with a cause! More on this later, but suffice to say that the combination of 'principled' and 'willing to mutiny
4. The second most awesome pilot. Lee has no problem playing second
5. No grand destiny. Lee may yet be given one. I don't know. But I do know that he's always been played as a character who does not believe in his personal destiny and/or 'specialness'. And no, I'm not contrasting him to Kara here. I'm thinking more of Gaius. I don't know how deliberate it is but the show has occasionally produced episodes that invite us to compare the two figures--Gaius, so desperate to believe that there's something 'special' that redeems him, or some mystic destiny guiding his hand; and Lee, who would baulk at such an idea, who believes in free will, rationality and the pragmatic logical decision. I'm a bit of a sucker for that contrast (especially since I'm with Lee all the way on this!).
6. Democracy's advocate. Someone needs to be! (understatement!) The Lee-Laura relationship is obviously the biggest card here, but Lee-Zarek is part of the landscape as well. Much has been written elsewhere (*nods to
asta77*) on why Laura needs someone like Lee around, why that works so well--whether they are in agreement or dispute. Lee's ability to argue, to think deeply about the issues and to weigh decisions appropriately is one of his most useful attributes--and through his character the viewer or reader can follow a debate or issue from a different angle.7. Leadership qualities. I maintain Lee demonstrated leadership qualities from the start--but I also like that he developed them and he grew more confident in this role over time. Characters should grow--and Lee did. Lee's capacity for leadership is, one would think, infinitely useful, and no matter how clunkily it came about it was good to see that recognised in his short stint as Prez.
8. Ability to empathise. I'd argue this is part of what makes him a good leader, but I wanted to single it out because it is pretty damn rare in the BSG cast. Like many of the characters, Lee has had his fair share of trauma and he's battled nihilism, depression and other inner demons for a long time. He knows how hard it is to get up and keep going, even when you maybe don't believe it'll work out. Yes, sometimes he is trapped in his own pain and can't hear the voices of those closest to him, but often Lee's capacity for compassion towards others and his personal experiences combine to make him a very empathetic person. With so many characters emotionally and physically bruised and battered at this point in time that seems to me to be a very important attribute. It also means he doesn't hold grudges with people like Helo or Sam, even though they've crossed each other in the past.
9. Not the Cylons' biggest fan. I stuck this down the bottom of my list as it's a bit controversial. ;) But personally I love that Lee (or SOMEONE) considered annhiliating the Cylons once and for all. Because if offered that option in the middle of a war that could end in human extinction, you would have to consider it. I also like that Lee works (or worked) well as a contrast to Helo, the Cylons' human advocate.
10. Hotness! Let us not forget it! For it is most useful to have a character that looks extremely hot in the following circumstances: in a flight suit, relaxing in the mess, sleeveless, drunk, in a suit, in a red shirt, in a towel, naked, in bed with other characters, in arguments with other characters (particularly on steamy algae planets), when frustrated, when elated, even when he's emo... such flexibility of hotness has got to be admired. AND USED!!!
1. Lee/Kara. I'm biased, obviously. ;) But Lee/Kara offers the attraction of opposites, family politics/history and angst (Zak!), grand destinies, tragedy kinks, death and rebirth, mutual saving-of-each-other (multiple times), the frustration of mistiming and misunderstanding, as well as sparkling chemistry, banter and arm porn. Not to mention boxing, drunken kisses and declarations of love.
2. Lee/Laura. I still can't see what Laura sees in Bill. Sorry Adama/Roslin people! I'd pick the son, any day. And I really like Lee's relationship with Laura. She can talk politics with him, they can disagree and still respect one another, he empathises with her and understands what she's trying to balance. And 'lady's in charge' is probably my favourite line from the mini--the fact that Lee accepted Laura so fast in that role made him infinitely great in my eyes. And if he's to play her successor the relationship has an extra layer of pathos.
3. Lee/Kendra. A ship I'd like to see WAY more of. Kendra is potentially a fabulous character to pair Lee with because they have a lot in common--Razor paralleled their journeys. But Kendra also has some Kara-like attributes and the differences in her circumstances and Lee's would make for very interesting material to explore. I don't think theirs would be an easy relationship (whether romantic or purely as Commander and 2IC) but it would be engaging. Also Kara/Lee/Kendra would have been a Triangle of Awesome (as opposed to a Quadrangle of Doom!).
4. Lee/Dee. Yeah, look, not my favourite ship because I look to fiction for escapism from reality and Lee/Dee is a very 'real life' ship to me. But it does show some attributes of Lee's that I like, including his imperfections. Love is a struggle for Lee and he doesn't always understand it--he thinks he can will it into being by sheer determination. And in real life? He probably could. (But she might still walk out on him anyway.) Something about the pathos of the Lee/Dee ship does tug at my heartstrings--and I think it's the idea of two people trying to snatch some happiness in less than ideal circumstances. It's also the ship that says grand romance is not all it's cut out to be--and that's a valid message.
5. Lee/Helo. Heh heh heh. Um. Totally there for the HOT factor. No, not just that! The potential greatness of Lee/Helo lies in the fact that there is both mutual respect and some rivalry/angst between these two. Lee had a hard time accepting Athena and he disagrees politically with Helo's stance on the Cylons (or did), but they totally respected each other in their roles within the military and were shown as buddies occasionally (random gym scene yay!). As best friend to Kara, Helo's also in an interesting position to observe Lee's rocky love life. Can't buy them as a longterm ship but totally appropriate for one-night-stands. ;)
6. Lee/Racetrack. She brought him back to life! Racetrack is an interesting character to explore in fic because we get only glimpses of her in canon. A pairing that could potentially win me.
7. Lee/Sam. Has been banished far down my personal list due to Sam's complete hopelessness as a character in my eyes in 4.0. But I do understand why people ship them, even if I don't myself. It's the arms, right? No? Lee's compassion for Sam following Kara's death was terrific--and the grounds for the grace with which they treated one another on Kara's return to the fleet. I like that the show didn't stick with adolescent jealousy and rivalry but showed the two men united in grief and then joy instead--and I can see why that's a big turn-on for Kara fans. ;)
8. Lee/Ellen. Because it would be amusing and porny at the same time. Lee discombulated by unwanted female attention is a pretty wonderful thing and there should be more of it.
9. Lee/Shevon. Yeah, yeah, I'm the only person in the world who wants to read fic about them. *ducks thrown tomatoes* But I kind of liked the fucked-up-ed-ness of their relationship and thought she had balls for dumping him after he saved Paya. I wouldn't want to live there forever, but I am kind of fascinated by what was going on there for Lee--particularly the desire to protect others, and the secret yearning for a family and 'normalcy' (tragically transparently unreal).
10. Lee/pregnant Caprican girlfriend. It may have been a bit 'pasted on yay!' but Lee's history with women is intriguing, especially in a longer look at his fear of intimacy, and the way his commitment issues war with his desperation to be someone's somebody.
Feel free to add to the list or reorder it at will! :)
Since I've run out of time today, this post might have to be the first of several. And be warned that the lists may get crazier over time... Aww, I've missed talking about Lee!
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no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 02:05 pm (UTC)Leadership qualities. I maintain Lee demonstrated leadership qualities from the start--but I also like that he developed them and he grew more confident in this role over time.
Lee wouldn't have been a Captain at such a relatively young age if he hadn't shown leadership ability. And it's clear from the mini series that, put in a high pressure situation, he can make the tough decisions in a very limited amount of time. Laura may have had to give the order, but Lee was the one that argued they had to leave behind the ships without FTL drives when the Cylons discovered their position.
Lee didn't see the leadership ability in himself early on and it wasn't until he became commander of Pegasus that he started really believing in himself. Stepping down as CAG and becoming a civilian leader as part of the Quorum was an easy decision for him because he now believed in himself and what he could do. And look at how easily he accepted the presidency? Lee has so much more confidence now.
It just occurred to me I could probably do a whole essay on this subject. ;p
2. Lee/Laura. I still can't see what Laura sees in Bill.
Well, I think you know I would make this #1 but, yeah, Bill over Lee? Pfft!
And 'lady's in charge' is probably my favourite line from the mini--the fact that Lee accepted Laura so fast in that role made him infinitely great in my eyes.
I didn't become a Lee fangirl until 'Bastille Day', but the "Lady's in charge" line I found awesome because I really didn't expect the writers to have anyone, let alone the flyboy, accept Laura that quickly. In a show filled with drama, there was no drama in that moment.
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 09:57 pm (UTC)Lee didn't see the leadership ability in himself early on and it wasn't until he became commander of Pegasus that he started really believing in himself.
*nods* I agree that that's more of the issue--Lee never lacked leadership ability but he did lack confidence in himself, which I think is preferable to too much ego in one a young man... and he grew into that confidence.
I didn't become a Lee fangirl until 'Bastille Day', but the "Lady's in charge" line I found awesome because I really didn't expect the writers to have anyone, let alone the flyboy, accept Laura that quickly.
Hee. No. It made me fangirl Lee, but it also made me like Laura because somehow I'd already hooked into Lee and I figured if he he backed her then I should too. ;)
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 02:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 09:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-05 06:45 am (UTC)Ahem.
And yes, why is there so little fic about those pairings? I actually put in a request for some Lee/Six mindfrakking fic because dear god, I need some frakking variety in the fics I read. I'm just hoping people will somehow become inspired to write non-L/K stories soon. *prays real hard*
*uses Kendra icon because she was awesome and why did she have to be killed off and I want her back now writers*
:)
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 02:30 pm (UTC)So say we all :D
And re: your pairings: I sort of wrote #8 a long time ago; and I too would like to know more about #9. (Maybe that will be a BSG fic-writing exercise for me at some point!!)
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 10:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-05 08:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 02:49 pm (UTC)For a character that's been given somewhat short shrift by TPTB, he's also pretty complex. Lee is also the most grounded/relatable of the main characters on BSG (Helo don't count for this). He's sort of an everyman.
I also love your descrip of Kara/Lee. That's all it right there bundled into an awesome pithy little nutshell.
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 10:05 pm (UTC)Lee is ULTRA complex! And yes, I think he is meant to be (or should be used as) an everyman character. He's not the hero, and that's actually really important to me. I think a lot of times when Lee doesn't measure up to fans' expectations or they get cranky with him it comes down to them expecting him to be a hero character and his heroism, when it does appear (pretty much everyone on BSG gets to be a hero occasionally!) is of an unconventional, unshowy kind. It's not necessarily action-based (though we might expect this from a pilot) but often has to do with his persuasive skills and capacity for self-sacrifice. Those are actually traits one would more usually see in a conventional heroine. (Another reason Kara/Lee is great--it gender swaps the hero/heroine roles!)
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 11:15 pm (UTC)We don't have to agree for me to appreciate them. You so often point out things I've overlooked or go further with a theory that ocurred but I didn't examine fully. So much food for thought.
The way you feel about Lee is the way I feel about Kara. I've never for one second not loved her or gotten tired of her or been irritated by her actions. Her flaws just make her more endearing to me. Katee's portrayal and the writing for Kara both simply captivate me.
I do love the gender-switcharoo but I'm also guilty of being irritated by it in regards to Lee. It's a double standard. I know.
Thinking back though, I think I liked Lee the least in S1 and now I generally enjoy him a lot more. He's grown up and is much less petulant and unforgiving.
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 11:57 pm (UTC)I think one thing that always made me sympthetic to Lee was that I could see that he was struggling internally--his petulance, if you read it that way, was never fixed, it was always something he was battling with. I'm glad for Lee's sake he's worked through a LOT of stuff. I hope Kara gets to do the same because I'm not sure, with her death/rebirth, that she's quite had the same opportunity to mature. It's different, maybe?
no subject
Date: 2008-12-05 12:24 am (UTC)It's funny because I never really saw her as being that macho. From the minute in the mini when Lee's back from the dead and she sees him and rolls out from under her viper I thought she was so incredibly vulnerable. Just laying it right out there on her sleeve. And he was the nonchalant, seemingly unaffected one. And that continued all through S1 for me. I could so easily read her feelings for him and I wasn't so sure it extended the other way till Colonial Day.
I hope Kara gets to do the same because I'm not sure, with her death/rebirth, that she's quite had the same opportunity to mature. It's different, maybe?
I think it is different. I can't say I've really thought Kara's problem was immaturity so much as just being incredibly frakked up. After New Caprica, I'd argue she's had a lot of moments of maturity (at least as many as Lee: bucking up and going to see Kacey, being honest with Dee in the raptor (both pilots were being immature with the affair so we can't count that), going to Kat in The Passage, her talk with Lee under the wing in Maelstrom.
I think her "special destiny" has really taken over all her storylines and not knowing who or what she is has made it hard to see where she is emotionally. Again I fault the writing in 4.0, TPTB wanting to drag out answers until the end of things both for Kara's rebirth and the K/L ship. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.
no subject
Date: 2008-12-05 01:11 am (UTC)I can't say I've really thought Kara's problem was immaturity so much as just being incredibly frakked up
Hmm. I think they can be two parts of one coin? I mean I look at Kara's relationships and think 'really immature', but I also realise that her behaviour patterns stem from being frakked-up. Same with Lee--when he and Adama fight it looks immature, for sure, but it also stems from their frakked up family history.
I think her "special destiny" has really taken over all her storylines and not knowing who or what she is has made it hard to see where she is emotionally. Again I fault the writing in 4.0
Gah, yes, totally! I have never felt so disconnected from either Lee OR Kara and I think the writing made it really hard to know where either of them were at. They were mainly being used to advance the plot, very few no interesting character moments at all. I hope the writers get it together.
Gah.
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 03:34 pm (UTC)Sigh. I am a wee bit of a fangirl, really...
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 10:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 10:18 pm (UTC)And Lee's head feels very much like home - of all the characters he is the one I feel I identify with most (well, I do have a strong affinity for Starbuck, being a bolshie kind of girl with a tendency to drink my way around, and a past involving a few, er, shall we say, flings). But something about Lee's moral sense, and his relative intellectualism, really speaks to me.
Except that I can't fly a Viper, and lack combat skills, and really wouldn't be much use in a firefight.
But apart from that...
;)
no subject
Date: 2008-12-05 12:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 05:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 10:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 08:29 pm (UTC)9. Not the Cylons' biggest fan.
I could not agree more. It's completely unbelievable that more people would not have advocated the Cylons complete destruction. Yeah it doesn't reflect well on humans or humanity but it's a completely understandable emotional response to everything they've gone through since the war began. And it's a nice contrast to many of Lee's other traits, especially the "good" ones.
1. Lee/Kara.
You've just summed up one of the most complicated relationships ever in the most simple of ways. Countless people writing endless essays about Kara/Lee...Bop bangs it out in 3 sentences. This is why you are brilliant.
I still can't see what Laura sees in Bill.
I don't ship Laura/Lee in any way but I completely agree with that statement. I get why they're friends and confidants but lovers...not so much.
Lee/Kendra
Uh...no. Just no. I know fandoms opinion has moved in a more positive direction regarding Razor but mine has not. I don't ever see myself not loathing Kendra and to think of Lee with her in any way...sorry but no.
Lee/Helo. Heh heh heh. Um. Totally there for the HOT factor.
Now this, this I can get behind. Total one-night-stand kind of thing...only multiple one-nights. Yeah...all of that.
I've stopped thinking of Sam as anything more than an annoyance but, in regards to Lee's treatment of him after Kara's "death" and her return I have to agree, it was graceful and mature and very much Lee.
More lists/posts would rock...if you can get away from work that is. :)
no subject
Date: 2008-12-04 10:15 pm (UTC)Yes! Yes, it is! :) I like that he can be a total hardass absolutist as well as a compassionate human. I think the writers completely dropped the ball on showing Lee's (shifting?) attitude to the Cylons, so I tend to still think of him as taking a hardline with them even though the whole Alliance thing would say otherwise. (Sigh.) It's not that I think Lee couldn't come round, it's just that I think he'd need a lot of exploration of what the Cylons really are, how culpable humanity is for creating them, how they function as sentient beings and whether there is real proof of their capacity for change. But in the meanwhile, you don't fight a war that hard and absolute and not consider a way out like that when it's offered you.
Countless people writing endless essays about Kara/Lee...Bop bangs it out in 3 sentences. This is why you are brilliant.
Hahahaha! Er, thanks! :) it must have been the glass of red wine that did it.
I don't ever see myself not loathing Kendra and to think of Lee with her in any way...sorry but no.
Aww... I love Kendra. I loved Razor. (Sorry!) I'm itching to try and persuade you but ... ok, I'll let it go. ;)
Total one-night-stand kind of thing...only multiple one-nights
Hee hee hee. Yes. Someone should write 'five times Lee and Helo hook up'. It would be very amusing. :D Even though Unfinished Business was Kara/Lee heaven, I couldn't help but find it slightly slashy that Lee was flashbacking about Kara during his boxing match with Helo. *fans self* Lee taking out his Kara issues on Helo ... mmmm... *daydreams*
I've stopped thinking of Sam as anything more than an annoyance
Well it's what he excels at.
in regards to Lee's treatment of him after Kara's "death" and her return I have to agree, it was graceful and mature and very much Lee.
I tried REALLY REALLY HARD there! Did you see!?! *proud*
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Date: 2008-12-05 04:06 am (UTC)That's not all they dropped the ball on but this is a bit of a doozy since Lee has always been - more than Roslin, more than anyone - the voice of the anti-Cylon contingency. He came around on Sharon, slowly but surely, but that was because of their one-on-one relationship and you could argue that his evolving relationship with Sharon is a microcosm of his feelings towards Cylons as a whole. That said it's a lazy and weak argument because a) Sharon has proved herself time and time again as an individual and b) identifies as a human whereas the others still identify as Cylons. Not to mention that it's still largely fan conjecture that his relationship with Sharon has bettered, we haven't gotten all that much proof in canon (b/c why would be need that?).
I love Kendra. I loved Razor. (Sorry!) I'm itching to try and persuade you but ... ok, I'll let it go.
No, don't let it go. Just know that it's going to be difficult. I think I have two major problems with Razor: 1) I felt TPTB were forcing it upon us; that it was a financial ploy plain and simple and that they really didn't care much about the fan base (which I think is sorta backed up by their complete and utter disregard/laziness/ineptitude when it came to already established cannon). I felt that if they wanted to do a movie there was so much more interesting material they could have culled from, from characters that we knew and already had a relationship with. We didn't need a new character introduced. And I sure as hell wasn't sitting around wondering what the Pegasus had been doing before it met up with Galactica. I got all the background info I needed from the show already. 2) I didn't like Cain and I honestly don't think we were really suppose to. I don't like fanatics and while I could see where she was coming from there are certain lines that you don't cross. So considering my feelings towards Cain it's hardly surprising that I didn't Kendra aka Cain Jr. I found her selfish and irrational and too much of a hardass to truly be believable. She shared a lot of traits with Kara but lacked Kara's shades of gray or sense of humor and humanity.
Maybe I need to give it another try but...I'd need to be convinced since it's left a pretty bad taste in my mouth.
Someone should write 'five times Lee and Helo hook up'. It would be very amusing.
Ah man, did you have to give me a plot bunny? 'Cause now I just might ahve to give it a try because of the hotness and all.
And I didn't notice you trying really really hard and am very proud. :) Teehee.
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Date: 2008-12-04 09:50 pm (UTC)Exactly! Definitely one of my favorite bits about Lee.
Great list altogether. Yay Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Date: 2008-12-04 10:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-05 08:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-12-06 01:56 am (UTC)I think it's more that he's basically a male version of Kara. :P
I can see it being hot in a sort of transference kind of way. Except that Lee isn't necessarily the type to sublimate and transfer. But maybe just enough.
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Date: 2008-12-18 03:38 am (UTC)And I love his inability to give rousing speeches to his pilots but being able to rescue Baltar from execution with his words. I love his it's-a-dirty-job heroic pilotry, where he's the last man to ever contemplate painting 'kills' onto his ship. I love his willingness to screw over Roslin for The Truth and cry like a drunken tramp in his shiny uniform over his shipping triangles. I love that he got fat and I love that he got thin again and I love the time he wore a snazzy yellow leisure shirt. I love the idea that he paid a woman to sleep with him and then tried to get on with her little girl like an uncle. I love that he can't hold his drink, or his food and that he sulks like a brat when he's pretending not to be jealous.
Most of all, I love the way he looks at people he loves when he thinks they can't see him. I would watch an entire hour of Lee and Kara refusing to speak to each other in the same room.
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Date: 2008-12-21 05:07 am (UTC)*rotfl* Yeah. And let's face it: someone needs to.
I love that a prissy, beautiful, mumbling tense bitch chose to fall in love with someone like Kara - too many beers, too loud a laugh, not enough manicure.
Oh I love your descriptions so much. :) And I read the rest of your love-of-Lee statement and just grinned and smiled so hard, because I really do love ALL those things about Lee. They all make me want to laugh and punch him in the arm Lois-style and feed him cookies and tell him to get over himself, but at the same time totally adore him just as he is, you know?
Most of all, I love the way he looks at people he loves when he thinks they can't see him. I would watch an entire hour of Lee and Kara refusing to speak to each other in the same room.
Ohhhhh yes! SAME. Could they replace the remainder of Season 4 with that, do you think? It would be more compelling than the Cylon-soap, i'm sure!
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Date: 2008-12-24 11:13 am (UTC)Could they replace the remainder of Season 4 with that, do you think?
I know! Never mind happy couples, why on earth would the show-runners stop Lee and Kara from arguing or fighting with each other either?
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Date: 2008-12-27 01:55 am (UTC)Maybe because he has those (quite frequent) moments where his stoicism erupts and he loses it? Either verbally or in a self-destructive way. I think the pissy bitch aspect of his personality offsets the stoic quite well really. ;) Makes him way more human in my eyes! Something about the way Jamie plays Lee emoting means he doesn't feel closed off as such characters often would to me.
Lee and Kara need to argue and frak and fight forever and ever and ever, amen.