Battlestar Galactica 4.06 Faith
May. 11th, 2008 04:51 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
bop_radarI haven't been talking about it. I've been afraid to do so. But I've been really struggling with Battlestar this season. If you're feeling the love, you probably want to skip by this post.
This episode was, where I was concerned, ironically titled given that it was the episode in which I lost all faith in the show and it's capacity to produce an ending that I will be at all satisfied with. My loss of faith was pretty sudden. It started last week when I had a realisation about where RDM was taking the show and why he thought that would be successful (which I'll get to below). But I didn't write about it immediately, even though I felt like doing so. I thought I'd wait and see whether I was wrong. But this episode confirmed my fears completely.
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daybreak777 completely selflessly and generously offered to watch the episode with me (I think she sensed that I was struggling) and I feel really guilty for being bleak all over her squee. So I honestly urge you not to read this review if you are at all squeeful about the show still! Because I wish I was. I still love it to pieces, I love the characters to pieces and I will be watching (and writing) until the last second, because that's what I'm like. I'm a completionist and I'm very loyal. I'm not giving up BSG, but something fundamental has shifted for me.
Not onboard
Let me put it this way: I feel like by this stage in the series RDM wants us all to be on a certain boat, being carried towards the final horizon. But I got left on the shore. It's not a shippy thing; it's not even specific to Lee! I'm actually very happy about Lee's plot this season so far, and I think during the first few eps that insulated me from the realisation that I wasn't onboard with the show overall. I was just squeeful to have the show, and Lee, and Kara/Lee, back.
But Season 4 is, we know, the final season, and we also know that RDM has a very specific ending in mind. I've been growing increasingly uneasy about what that ending will entail. All the signs are that it will involve humans and Cylons uniting, despite the past conflict. Now, that actually sounds ok to me in theory. In fact I remember once ages ago having a conversation withqueenofthorns, in which she argued that the Cylons should never be forgiven for the genocide. I sympathised with that viewpoint but, at the time, was more moderate in my response. At that time I still held hope that the show would show us that some of the Cylon models were collectively capable of change and remorse. The humans are not perfect either and I also expected that the show would, at some stage, explore the ways in which the humans were responsible for the creation of the Cylons in the first place. I was, therefore, able to give the show the benefit of the doubt about making that ending successful--because hypothetically it could work, if the storytelling was strong enough.
It's been clear to me this season that this is exactly the ending that RDM is pushing for. We've got Kara and her ambiguous destiny, that is linked intrinsically with the Cylons. We've got Gaius promoting Cylon monotheism and people totally buying into it. I can see the writing on the wall. But what was puzzling me, until last week, was why RDM would think that we'd swallow such an ending. Because, to me, they haven't done enough to show that the Cylons are capable of remorse and real change. There are a couple of individuals--Athena and Caprica--who have proved capable of that. I trust neither of them fully, even now. I do like them and find them fascinating characters, but they're hardly representative of their race: they're the anomalies. I think it wasasta77 who said to me recently that just as there are some terrible members of humanity, there are some 'good' Cylons. But I wouldn't damn all humanity on the actions of a minority; likewise I can't embrace all Cylons because a couple of them are sympathetic.
So why does RDM think we'll swallow this? I was genuinely puzzled, and that made me hope that perhaps a more subtle ending was in store. Surely RDM couldn't really think he'd made the Cylons sympathetic enough to us yet? I had expected there to be a lot of development with the Cylon morality this season if he was going to sell that idea; but we haven't seen that. And then it dawned on me! He does think he's done enough already--and he thinks that because of the Final Four reveal at the end of Season 3. He thinks that the audience will be invested enough in at least one of those characters, and interested enough in their journey of self-discovery, that they will want the Cylons to be sympathetic. They will want a 'way out' for their Cylon favourite.
His logic is probably quite sound. After all in choosing the Final Four, he's covered a fair range of characters. There's Tigh, who as Adama's best friend carries a lot of gravitas. There's Galen, who is a popular likeable 'everyman'. There's Sam, who is wildly popular and is intimately connected with Kara (another favourite), and there's Tory. Ok, Tory seems like the weak card, but some people do like her, she's linked to Roslin and they probably needed at least one woman. ;) I think it's no coincidence that it's Tory who they've played as most embracing her Cylon identity. She was the most expendable of the Final Four because she had the smallest following. It would have been less interesting if all of them had rejected their identity. But in having one of the embrace it, the stakes are upped.
Trouble for me is: I don't care about any of these characters. I didn't like them much before they were revealed as Cylons and I don't like them any better now. There was a brief moment where I thought I might get into Sam's angst, but then he started acting like a complete nitwit and lost me again. Of all of the four, I probably like Tigh the most, but I still find him a rather repugnant bigoted individual. He makes for compelling television, but he's not sympathetic to me. But. If he was. If any of them were, I might be finding this season a lot more suspenseful because I'd be torn. I'd be wanting the humans to find Earth and freedom from the war, but I'd also be wanting my Cylon character to find a torture-less future too.
So, in short, I understand why heaps of people are still on board with the show, but I'm not. Two other factors are compounding my feelings: the monotheism versus polytheism issue, and the sexual politics.
Monotheism versus polytheism
I've never been the biggest Baltar fan, but I don't think that's the reason I'm finding this plotline distasteful. I'm actually quite entertained by Baltar himself and rather fascinated with the way that Head!Six is controlling him. However, what I don't like is this shift to monotheism. Laying my cards on the table: I'm an atheist, and all the religious aspects of the show have been a bit of a struggle for me. I was willing to run with them, but I was way more comfortable with the idea of multiple deities that are, as Laura described this week, not meant to be read literally. Instead we've got this shift to monotheism, complete with a lot of Christian overtones. And boy, am I NOT on board with that.
I'm sure many people will disagree with me, but it's my own personal belief that monotheism has caused a great deal of violence and a great many attrocities in our own world. I do not see it as an improvement on polytheism and I hate the suggestion that it is. Doubly, as an atheist, I find all this 'God loves me just the way I am'/'I am perfect' stuff absolutely repugnant. Under that ethos, you can commit any act as long as you wash your sins away with 'God' afterwards. Bleugh.
On a lighter note, I just find monotheism way more boring. If I had to make up a fictional world, I would never make it monotheistic. So many shows have used religious imagery that has parallels to Christianity (or another monotheistic religion) to great effect. Been there. Done that. I thought BSG was more interesting!
Furthermore, monotheism has been the Cylon belief system since the beginning and yet all these human characters are turning to it after all? I find that hard to believe. Seeing Laura have her own religious experience and consider the possibility that Baltar could be telling the 'truth' this week was the final straw for me. Until that point, I could understand Laura's own feelings about religion. She liked the ceremonies, the traditions, and she maintained an open mind about the mysticism. But she didn't read the scriptures too literally. I loved the scene between her and Emily where she expressed her sorrow about her mother and the way her mother had clung to religious hope. Her description of their being 'nothing' reminded me of Lee's death. No bright shining lights, no welcome home party. Just darkness. However, seeing Laura on an actual boat later really shocked me. I didn't buy it, I couldn't swallow it. It shocked me out of the show. Unlike Adama, I was not convinced by Laura (or Baltar) one bit.
Sexual politics
This could be a whole other post, and really I don't see a lot of point in going into it in depth as many people have written about it better than I could. But as an extra irritation, I find the sexual politics of BSG increasingly suspect. I used to love the show for its strong female characters, and I guess I still do. But they've also diminished and sexualised so many of their female characters (all but Laura: which can be read as ageism). Every week, something hits my squick button. If it's not Tory being pimped to Baltar or Kara acting like a wifebeater, it's Boomer/Cavill (ewww with the unnecessary!). Or, this week, the gratuitous Six/Six kiss. I could live without all of that. It makes it feel like RDM's just creating his own personal fanservice every week. Heaven forbid that a week go by without Baltar or Kara or preferably both getting off with someone. Usually for no good reason.
Faith
So. This week's ep. I actually thought it was quite good--certainly better than last week's. It was powerful story-telling, just not story-telling in a direction that I liked.
And the second week in a row with no Lee? NOT COOL.
Things I liked: the suspense (waiting for Kara versus getting Gaeta's leg treated); Laura's scenes (so emotionally resonant and powerful); Kara acting, at least for some of the episode, with a clear head.
Things I really didn't like: Sam's behaviour throughout, all the Cylony anvilly stuff for Kara, and the implication that Baltar is right.
Sam drove me absolutely fucking batshit, excuse my language. I have tried with his character, I have really tried. But I think I have to give up at this point. I cannot believe that he responded to the mutiny by staging his own personal mutiny and pulling a gun on a senior officer. Of all the dangerous, escalative actions! That could have ended in a total bloodbath. Not to mention being professional suicide for him. And then he actually shot Gaeta. Gah. I've always felt Sam wasn't really cut out to be a soldier (that's pretty much been textualised on the show) so him becoming a pilot was always problematic to me. And this episode brought all my fears to life. He has no respect for authority, he is a total loose cannon, he acts on his own personal emotion, with no logic whatsoever. What was he going to achieve exactly by holding everyone at gunpoint and asking 'do you wanna know who's in charge?'?!
His actions were so out of line--as shown by the fact that Kara herself couldn't bring herself to talk to him afterwards. She, thankfully, kept a level head and a clear sense of priorities. In fact I think his actions were so totally out of control that in some ways it helped trigger Kara's decision to go it alone. She didn't want to be associated with his crazy actions at all. (Of course, that was undermined by her agreeing to take him along. OMFG, WHY? I'm going to fanwank that she just couldn't be bothered arguing with him. But it did make me DEEPLY WORRIED that she was heading off in a raptor with three Cylons.)
I did think the dramatic set-up was excellent though. And they remembered that Athena is a Cylon! \o/ Having her go on the mission both made sense and added dramatic tension to Helo waiting until the last minute for their return.daybreak777 can confirm that I called Jean's death as soon as she was accepted for the mission (and what, are they killing off every support cast member one by one now? Will Seelix or Racetrack be next?). There was no other reason for her to be there: so slightly less tension there.
I have been very curious to find out more about the Cylon civil war, so I was pleased that we got to do so this episode. But on a personal level I found it tragic that Kara's destiny turned out to be the Cylons. Having her comet turn out to be a Cylon basestar made me feel physically nauseous. All that hope of freedom and human survival... turns out to be a Cylon plot. I know several people have suggested that Kara's death was faked by the Cylons and now I'm starting to think that too. The alternative is that she is an Angel to them, as Leoben suggests, luring the humans to their deaths. Neither possibility bodes well for humanity.
There were some fantastic scenes on the Cylon basestar though. I loved Athena's speech to the other Eights. 'You don't cut and run when things get ugly' (Waah, that's exactly how I feel about BSG!) 'You pick your side and you stick.' For better or worse, I, like Athena have picked humanity. And her call seems really true about the other Eights: they're flaky.
The scene where Six confronted Jean was likewise very powerful. I like the continuity and I felt it proved one of the many reasons it's going to be hard for humans and Cylons to co-mingle: they are going to be looking into the faces of their killers. Tricia is such a great actress--she really sold me on that Six model's pain and inability to let go of the memory of being killed. I thought Jean was surprisingly blase and reckless in making the call she did--given how dangerous it was for them to be there with so many Cylons, and given how tenuous the agreement to work together was. At the same time, I was upset by Jean's death. She was an interesting character, and I'd liked the little riffs between her and Sam last season. It worked dramatically to have him there and have him freak out about her death, but omg, once again proving what a bad soldier he makes. Kara even tried to talk him down, and still he ignored her. I see that it's in character, but it pained me. Likewise Sharon proves, once again, that she's a more hardcore 'human' than humans--arguing that since they've killed 'one of us' revenge is justified. I must say all of this made Kara look pretty good. But it was still agonising to watch.
The fact that one Six was able to so calmly justify the killing of another only confirms to me what a mistake it would be for the humans to trust her.
And yay, Kara for finding the Hybrid hopelessly obtuse! Worried as I am about the end of the show, I really didn't need to hear the Hybrid's dire warning from Razor again. And this time it came with bonus other hints. Kara is a 'spark of God's fire' (would that be Baltar's god?), her children will be find their own country and then 'end of line' (Cylon-human hybrids?). And oh, my poor Kara! To have to hear that prophecy herself. Her shock was so terrible. :( All this time she's been chasing her destiny, only to discover it's to be a destroyer.
The Eight's death was moving largely because of the way that it built on previous scenes. Her asking for Athena's forgiveness was very moving. And while I don't empathise with him, I found it interesting (aka chilling) that Anders was so drawn to offer her the comfort that Athena herself could not. He proves himself 'more human' than them--and that was, I think, his motivation in doing it. I wish I could have seen it as a selfless compassionate act, but it seemed more like he was trying to prove something, trying to redeem his previous destructive actions. And wow, if Kara wasn't so distractedly in shock, you'd think the alarm bells would definitely be ringing that he was a Cylon by now.
I like the amp up in the stakes though: D'Anna will reveal the final Five. I wonder if she really will... seems like Anders might step in to prevent that happening. But it's intriguing, for sure. What will Kara do with the idea that she may be humanity's destroyer? She's already forged an alliance with at least some Cylons... if she thinks that through she may conclude that prophecy is correct. I would hold out hope that that might stop her pursuing her destiny if they hadn't made it so clear that it was physically painful for her not to. Waah!
Laura
I thought Laura's scenes were superlative this episode. I totally felt for her, to the point where I found them very hard to watch. I loved her dialogue with Emily--though I firmly took Laura's side in the religious debate until the end. It was only once we got to the boat vision that it lost me. And here I just don't know what to do. I'm not onboard. I have suspected all season that Laura is the Final Cylon, and this makes me more certain than ever. She resisted Baltar's religion not just because it was Baltar but also because it was a Cylon God. And now she's turning to it? I know she's dying but that's a big stretch for me. Unless it's part of a grander plan. Setting her up as the 'dying leader' is something I can totally imagine being part of the Cylons' Plan.
Forgive me for fearing the worst but this ain't going to end well.
And I missed Lee desperately. And also my Lee-subsitute, Gaeta, had his leg destroyed. And eeek with the foreshadow-y conversation with Helo about having it amputated. :((
It's all NO GOOD. Woe is Bop. But I'll still be tuning in next week...
This episode was, where I was concerned, ironically titled given that it was the episode in which I lost all faith in the show and it's capacity to produce an ending that I will be at all satisfied with. My loss of faith was pretty sudden. It started last week when I had a realisation about where RDM was taking the show and why he thought that would be successful (which I'll get to below). But I didn't write about it immediately, even though I felt like doing so. I thought I'd wait and see whether I was wrong. But this episode confirmed my fears completely.
daybreak777 completely selflessly and generously offered to watch the episode with me (I think she sensed that I was struggling) and I feel really guilty for being bleak all over her squee. So I honestly urge you not to read this review if you are at all squeeful about the show still! Because I wish I was. I still love it to pieces, I love the characters to pieces and I will be watching (and writing) until the last second, because that's what I'm like. I'm a completionist and I'm very loyal. I'm not giving up BSG, but something fundamental has shifted for me. Not onboard
Let me put it this way: I feel like by this stage in the series RDM wants us all to be on a certain boat, being carried towards the final horizon. But I got left on the shore. It's not a shippy thing; it's not even specific to Lee! I'm actually very happy about Lee's plot this season so far, and I think during the first few eps that insulated me from the realisation that I wasn't onboard with the show overall. I was just squeeful to have the show, and Lee, and Kara/Lee, back.
But Season 4 is, we know, the final season, and we also know that RDM has a very specific ending in mind. I've been growing increasingly uneasy about what that ending will entail. All the signs are that it will involve humans and Cylons uniting, despite the past conflict. Now, that actually sounds ok to me in theory. In fact I remember once ages ago having a conversation with
queenofthorns, in which she argued that the Cylons should never be forgiven for the genocide. I sympathised with that viewpoint but, at the time, was more moderate in my response. At that time I still held hope that the show would show us that some of the Cylon models were collectively capable of change and remorse. The humans are not perfect either and I also expected that the show would, at some stage, explore the ways in which the humans were responsible for the creation of the Cylons in the first place. I was, therefore, able to give the show the benefit of the doubt about making that ending successful--because hypothetically it could work, if the storytelling was strong enough.It's been clear to me this season that this is exactly the ending that RDM is pushing for. We've got Kara and her ambiguous destiny, that is linked intrinsically with the Cylons. We've got Gaius promoting Cylon monotheism and people totally buying into it. I can see the writing on the wall. But what was puzzling me, until last week, was why RDM would think that we'd swallow such an ending. Because, to me, they haven't done enough to show that the Cylons are capable of remorse and real change. There are a couple of individuals--Athena and Caprica--who have proved capable of that. I trust neither of them fully, even now. I do like them and find them fascinating characters, but they're hardly representative of their race: they're the anomalies. I think it was
asta77 who said to me recently that just as there are some terrible members of humanity, there are some 'good' Cylons. But I wouldn't damn all humanity on the actions of a minority; likewise I can't embrace all Cylons because a couple of them are sympathetic.So why does RDM think we'll swallow this? I was genuinely puzzled, and that made me hope that perhaps a more subtle ending was in store. Surely RDM couldn't really think he'd made the Cylons sympathetic enough to us yet? I had expected there to be a lot of development with the Cylon morality this season if he was going to sell that idea; but we haven't seen that. And then it dawned on me! He does think he's done enough already--and he thinks that because of the Final Four reveal at the end of Season 3. He thinks that the audience will be invested enough in at least one of those characters, and interested enough in their journey of self-discovery, that they will want the Cylons to be sympathetic. They will want a 'way out' for their Cylon favourite.
His logic is probably quite sound. After all in choosing the Final Four, he's covered a fair range of characters. There's Tigh, who as Adama's best friend carries a lot of gravitas. There's Galen, who is a popular likeable 'everyman'. There's Sam, who is wildly popular and is intimately connected with Kara (another favourite), and there's Tory. Ok, Tory seems like the weak card, but some people do like her, she's linked to Roslin and they probably needed at least one woman. ;) I think it's no coincidence that it's Tory who they've played as most embracing her Cylon identity. She was the most expendable of the Final Four because she had the smallest following. It would have been less interesting if all of them had rejected their identity. But in having one of the embrace it, the stakes are upped.
Trouble for me is: I don't care about any of these characters. I didn't like them much before they were revealed as Cylons and I don't like them any better now. There was a brief moment where I thought I might get into Sam's angst, but then he started acting like a complete nitwit and lost me again. Of all of the four, I probably like Tigh the most, but I still find him a rather repugnant bigoted individual. He makes for compelling television, but he's not sympathetic to me. But. If he was. If any of them were, I might be finding this season a lot more suspenseful because I'd be torn. I'd be wanting the humans to find Earth and freedom from the war, but I'd also be wanting my Cylon character to find a torture-less future too.
So, in short, I understand why heaps of people are still on board with the show, but I'm not. Two other factors are compounding my feelings: the monotheism versus polytheism issue, and the sexual politics.
Monotheism versus polytheism
I've never been the biggest Baltar fan, but I don't think that's the reason I'm finding this plotline distasteful. I'm actually quite entertained by Baltar himself and rather fascinated with the way that Head!Six is controlling him. However, what I don't like is this shift to monotheism. Laying my cards on the table: I'm an atheist, and all the religious aspects of the show have been a bit of a struggle for me. I was willing to run with them, but I was way more comfortable with the idea of multiple deities that are, as Laura described this week, not meant to be read literally. Instead we've got this shift to monotheism, complete with a lot of Christian overtones. And boy, am I NOT on board with that.
I'm sure many people will disagree with me, but it's my own personal belief that monotheism has caused a great deal of violence and a great many attrocities in our own world. I do not see it as an improvement on polytheism and I hate the suggestion that it is. Doubly, as an atheist, I find all this 'God loves me just the way I am'/'I am perfect' stuff absolutely repugnant. Under that ethos, you can commit any act as long as you wash your sins away with 'God' afterwards. Bleugh.
On a lighter note, I just find monotheism way more boring. If I had to make up a fictional world, I would never make it monotheistic. So many shows have used religious imagery that has parallels to Christianity (or another monotheistic religion) to great effect. Been there. Done that. I thought BSG was more interesting!
Furthermore, monotheism has been the Cylon belief system since the beginning and yet all these human characters are turning to it after all? I find that hard to believe. Seeing Laura have her own religious experience and consider the possibility that Baltar could be telling the 'truth' this week was the final straw for me. Until that point, I could understand Laura's own feelings about religion. She liked the ceremonies, the traditions, and she maintained an open mind about the mysticism. But she didn't read the scriptures too literally. I loved the scene between her and Emily where she expressed her sorrow about her mother and the way her mother had clung to religious hope. Her description of their being 'nothing' reminded me of Lee's death. No bright shining lights, no welcome home party. Just darkness. However, seeing Laura on an actual boat later really shocked me. I didn't buy it, I couldn't swallow it. It shocked me out of the show. Unlike Adama, I was not convinced by Laura (or Baltar) one bit.
Sexual politics
This could be a whole other post, and really I don't see a lot of point in going into it in depth as many people have written about it better than I could. But as an extra irritation, I find the sexual politics of BSG increasingly suspect. I used to love the show for its strong female characters, and I guess I still do. But they've also diminished and sexualised so many of their female characters (all but Laura: which can be read as ageism). Every week, something hits my squick button. If it's not Tory being pimped to Baltar or Kara acting like a wifebeater, it's Boomer/Cavill (ewww with the unnecessary!). Or, this week, the gratuitous Six/Six kiss. I could live without all of that. It makes it feel like RDM's just creating his own personal fanservice every week. Heaven forbid that a week go by without Baltar or Kara or preferably both getting off with someone. Usually for no good reason.
Faith
So. This week's ep. I actually thought it was quite good--certainly better than last week's. It was powerful story-telling, just not story-telling in a direction that I liked.
And the second week in a row with no Lee? NOT COOL.
Things I liked: the suspense (waiting for Kara versus getting Gaeta's leg treated); Laura's scenes (so emotionally resonant and powerful); Kara acting, at least for some of the episode, with a clear head.
Things I really didn't like: Sam's behaviour throughout, all the Cylony anvilly stuff for Kara, and the implication that Baltar is right.
Sam drove me absolutely fucking batshit, excuse my language. I have tried with his character, I have really tried. But I think I have to give up at this point. I cannot believe that he responded to the mutiny by staging his own personal mutiny and pulling a gun on a senior officer. Of all the dangerous, escalative actions! That could have ended in a total bloodbath. Not to mention being professional suicide for him. And then he actually shot Gaeta. Gah. I've always felt Sam wasn't really cut out to be a soldier (that's pretty much been textualised on the show) so him becoming a pilot was always problematic to me. And this episode brought all my fears to life. He has no respect for authority, he is a total loose cannon, he acts on his own personal emotion, with no logic whatsoever. What was he going to achieve exactly by holding everyone at gunpoint and asking 'do you wanna know who's in charge?'?!
His actions were so out of line--as shown by the fact that Kara herself couldn't bring herself to talk to him afterwards. She, thankfully, kept a level head and a clear sense of priorities. In fact I think his actions were so totally out of control that in some ways it helped trigger Kara's decision to go it alone. She didn't want to be associated with his crazy actions at all. (Of course, that was undermined by her agreeing to take him along. OMFG, WHY? I'm going to fanwank that she just couldn't be bothered arguing with him. But it did make me DEEPLY WORRIED that she was heading off in a raptor with three Cylons.)
I did think the dramatic set-up was excellent though. And they remembered that Athena is a Cylon! \o/ Having her go on the mission both made sense and added dramatic tension to Helo waiting until the last minute for their return.
daybreak777 can confirm that I called Jean's death as soon as she was accepted for the mission (and what, are they killing off every support cast member one by one now? Will Seelix or Racetrack be next?). There was no other reason for her to be there: so slightly less tension there.I have been very curious to find out more about the Cylon civil war, so I was pleased that we got to do so this episode. But on a personal level I found it tragic that Kara's destiny turned out to be the Cylons. Having her comet turn out to be a Cylon basestar made me feel physically nauseous. All that hope of freedom and human survival... turns out to be a Cylon plot. I know several people have suggested that Kara's death was faked by the Cylons and now I'm starting to think that too. The alternative is that she is an Angel to them, as Leoben suggests, luring the humans to their deaths. Neither possibility bodes well for humanity.
There were some fantastic scenes on the Cylon basestar though. I loved Athena's speech to the other Eights. 'You don't cut and run when things get ugly' (Waah, that's exactly how I feel about BSG!) 'You pick your side and you stick.' For better or worse, I, like Athena have picked humanity. And her call seems really true about the other Eights: they're flaky.
The scene where Six confronted Jean was likewise very powerful. I like the continuity and I felt it proved one of the many reasons it's going to be hard for humans and Cylons to co-mingle: they are going to be looking into the faces of their killers. Tricia is such a great actress--she really sold me on that Six model's pain and inability to let go of the memory of being killed. I thought Jean was surprisingly blase and reckless in making the call she did--given how dangerous it was for them to be there with so many Cylons, and given how tenuous the agreement to work together was. At the same time, I was upset by Jean's death. She was an interesting character, and I'd liked the little riffs between her and Sam last season. It worked dramatically to have him there and have him freak out about her death, but omg, once again proving what a bad soldier he makes. Kara even tried to talk him down, and still he ignored her. I see that it's in character, but it pained me. Likewise Sharon proves, once again, that she's a more hardcore 'human' than humans--arguing that since they've killed 'one of us' revenge is justified. I must say all of this made Kara look pretty good. But it was still agonising to watch.
The fact that one Six was able to so calmly justify the killing of another only confirms to me what a mistake it would be for the humans to trust her.
And yay, Kara for finding the Hybrid hopelessly obtuse! Worried as I am about the end of the show, I really didn't need to hear the Hybrid's dire warning from Razor again. And this time it came with bonus other hints. Kara is a 'spark of God's fire' (would that be Baltar's god?), her children will be find their own country and then 'end of line' (Cylon-human hybrids?). And oh, my poor Kara! To have to hear that prophecy herself. Her shock was so terrible. :( All this time she's been chasing her destiny, only to discover it's to be a destroyer.
The Eight's death was moving largely because of the way that it built on previous scenes. Her asking for Athena's forgiveness was very moving. And while I don't empathise with him, I found it interesting (aka chilling) that Anders was so drawn to offer her the comfort that Athena herself could not. He proves himself 'more human' than them--and that was, I think, his motivation in doing it. I wish I could have seen it as a selfless compassionate act, but it seemed more like he was trying to prove something, trying to redeem his previous destructive actions. And wow, if Kara wasn't so distractedly in shock, you'd think the alarm bells would definitely be ringing that he was a Cylon by now.
I like the amp up in the stakes though: D'Anna will reveal the final Five. I wonder if she really will... seems like Anders might step in to prevent that happening. But it's intriguing, for sure. What will Kara do with the idea that she may be humanity's destroyer? She's already forged an alliance with at least some Cylons... if she thinks that through she may conclude that prophecy is correct. I would hold out hope that that might stop her pursuing her destiny if they hadn't made it so clear that it was physically painful for her not to. Waah!
Laura
I thought Laura's scenes were superlative this episode. I totally felt for her, to the point where I found them very hard to watch. I loved her dialogue with Emily--though I firmly took Laura's side in the religious debate until the end. It was only once we got to the boat vision that it lost me. And here I just don't know what to do. I'm not onboard. I have suspected all season that Laura is the Final Cylon, and this makes me more certain than ever. She resisted Baltar's religion not just because it was Baltar but also because it was a Cylon God. And now she's turning to it? I know she's dying but that's a big stretch for me. Unless it's part of a grander plan. Setting her up as the 'dying leader' is something I can totally imagine being part of the Cylons' Plan.
Forgive me for fearing the worst but this ain't going to end well.
And I missed Lee desperately. And also my Lee-subsitute, Gaeta, had his leg destroyed. And eeek with the foreshadow-y conversation with Helo about having it amputated. :((
It's all NO GOOD. Woe is Bop. But I'll still be tuning in next week...
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-05-11 06:05 pm (UTC)My response got really long...so I'll take it to my journal to try to explain why. But in response to this:
I like the continuity and I felt it proved one of the many reasons it's going to be hard for humans and Cylons to co-mingle: they are going to be looking into the faces of their killers.
Yes, exactly. That is what the show is telling us! It's going to be insanely difficult. But as Kara points out: there is something much bigger at stake, here.
The fact that one Six was able to so calmly justify the killing of another only confirms to me what a mistake it would be for the humans to trust her.
It wasn't just an execution, it was a mercy killing. And she thought it was necessary for them all to move forward. Yes, it is scary! She is scary! But Sam wasn't going to stand down and she made her point to him. Chilling, but nothing we haven't seen from either side before.
Think about the point Natalie used her death to make, though. Is it going to be eye for an eye forever? How long could either race sustain that? The human race is even exacting its revenge and venting its bitterness on fellow humans -- with 30,000-odd of them left, can they afford to do that? A very Lee-like question. :)
Speaking of that -- I have a lot of certainty that Lee will play a big part in the upcoming episodes, though I'm sorry you don't really feel much of a connection to anyone else right now. I'm with you on the fact that sex has been in every ep so far and most of it has been squicky. Eh. But about the monotheism -- RDM in the podcast compared Gaius' cult to Charles Manson's and repeated over and over "He is not Jesus." I don't think we're supposed to see his portrayal as an endorsement of monotheism AT ALL (and I do believe the "Everybody's perfect just as they are" is supposed to be disturbing, given the man who is preaching this). In my view the show seems to endorse Adama-style guilt instead: acknowledge the mistakes of the past, recognize them, try to do better, but look to the future.
I am also really sure Laura's not the final Cylon. She just (like Lee) had a vision about death. But I'd still love her anyway! Just as Lee would love Kara.
I'm sorry this show is making you so unhappy right now, but I hope you hang in there and stay with it. Darker times are ahead, and I'm sure it will be painful to watch, but I still think the story will be a good one.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-11 09:49 pm (UTC)Wow. *reels* You called it EXACTLY. But how could you want that?! Is it because you love Kara and you want to be in her journey no matter what? I love her, I feel for her (terribly) but it's like watching someone I love being eaten alive by wolves to have her prove to be on Team Cylon--it's destroying her and me with her.
I wish I could borrow your eyes and see the show your way because you seem so happy about it. The story stopped being a good one for me at the end of Season 3.
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Date: 2008-05-11 10:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-11 11:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-12 12:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-12 01:11 am (UTC)I stare wistfully at the call-sign-acquiring fans. Once upon a time that would have been so fun!
part 1 (sorry I got long)
Date: 2008-05-12 03:39 am (UTC)Did I miss this or have you not posted it yet?
Yes, exactly. That is what the show is telling us! It's going to be insanely difficult. But as Kara points out: there is something much bigger at stake, here.
Not really. What's at stake is survival--and that's exactly the same thing. The show's done too good a job of showing that both people and Cylons are not capable of overcoming their pain and hurt and desire for revenge to be able to co-exist. What's the point in finding Earth if they're just going to tear each other to pieces once they're there?
It wasn't just an execution, it was a mercy killing.
I didn't read it that way at all. It was an execution. But then I never bought the 'mercy killing' in the mini-series of the baby either. In fact I think I reject the entire idea of a mercy killing. How is it mercy to kill someone? Ever? And in this instance she knew that the Six would not regenerate. She chose to end that individual once and for all. I don't think she needed too. She could have disarmed Sam and imprisoned that Six.
And she thought it was necessary for them all to move forward. Yes, it is scary! She is scary! But Sam wasn't going to stand down and she made her point to him. Chilling, but nothing we haven't seen from either side before.
But it's not progress. It's not showing that she's capable of compassion or that she's fighting to find a less violent outcome or that she's trying to change her behaviour patterns.
with 30,000-odd of them left, can they afford to do that? A very Lee-like question. :)
What's not Lee like at all is her making the point through KILLING someone. She got to make her point, yes, but I found it even more chilling that she was willing to kill one of her own just to make a point. That damns her to the same cycle of violence. She acts like she's above it, but actually she's just part of it. That's not Lee-like at all: at least he admits he's part of it, and it tears him to pieces. She didn't feel any remorse, she just smugly made her 'I'm a hardass' point and went on her way.
I have a lot of certainty that Lee will play a big part in the upcoming episodes
How? There's no place for him in RDM's endgame. I see that now.
I'm sorry you don't really feel much of a connection to anyone else right now
Actually I feel more of a connection to Kara than I think I ever have before. And part of why I'm finding it so hard to watch these last couple of episodes is because she's in such dark strife and trouble and she's facing the fact that she's on Team Cylon.
I also really love Helo (and loved him in this ep) and Gaeta and Laura. I'm very invested in the human characters--but the Cylons are lost on me.
But about the monotheism -- RDM in the podcast compared Gaius' cult to Charles Manson's and repeated over and over "He is not Jesus."
I'm sure he's protesting that so that he doesn't get accused of pedling born-again-Christian propaganda. At the same time, it seems very clear that Christianity is exactly what he's mimicking. What about the 'Last Supper' photo?! (Which, at the time, I completely dismissed because I didn't think RDM would be so boring--but it's proved to be a lot more of a prediction about this season that I expected.)
Re: part 1 (sorry I got long)
Date: 2008-05-12 05:04 am (UTC)I didn't mean to upset you, though. I am not saying that Natalie is fully mature and worthy of trust yet, nor are any of the other Cylons in the rebellion. All I'm saying is, the questioning of the Plan is the necessary first step. They're growing, Bop, as a sentient species. When they annihilated the humans based on a plan dictated by someone/something else who gave them their programming, they were in their infancy. Now they are awakening; it is the beginning of their adolescence. The short version of my meta is this: Caprica and Athena may be the anomalies now -- but they give me hope for the potential of others, especially because the Eights clearly wish to emulate her. No one is saying that will be a simple or easy process for them to wake up and change; but Caprica and Athena have demonstrated that it is possible.
I so don't really get why you and DB still mistrust Athena--is it just because she is a Cylon? But she's chosen her side. It seems clear to me at least that if she were a sleeper they would have flipped the switch on her by now to have her take her baby back to them, or sabotage the New Caprica exodus which hinged entirely on her theft of the launch keys. They did not, and she seems justified in her belief that she has no hidden programming. And if Athena was going to turn on the humans, you would think that being imprisoned, raped, having her baby stolen and deceived by them into believing that she had died would have caused her to do so. Instead, she did not waver.
There will always be humans like Seelix who reject her and suspect her at every opportunity. But there are those like Helo and Adama and Racetrack and even Lee who have come to accept her. That gives me hope for humanity, too.
I'm sorry that the only characters who engage you are all human ones. (And I hope for your sake Lee is not a Cylon!) But could you explain your aversion a bit more to me? Why are all of them irredemable in your eyes? I know I still hate ones like Cavil and Leoben who show no signs of developing a conscience, but I've always felt for the ones who are struggling to overcome this outside/unknown force previously in control of them all.
How is it mercy to kill someone? Ever?
If their suffering is such that makes living feel like torture, then death would be a mercy. Or in the case of the mini, Caprica gave the baby a swift, immediate death instead of a longer, more painful end to come in the bombings. At that point she was operating on the belief that "God" wanted them to annihilate the human race, and everyone on the planet was dead anyway.
You can't see anything at all in the way that Six reviled what her own life had become? She said that there was no way for her to work through the trauma. Natalie knew how much she'd struggled with it. She wanted to break the impasse, too, but she made her point to Sam too: revenge doesn't fix anything.
At the same time, it seems very clear that Christianity is exactly what he's mimicking.
There are undeniable references to Christianity, but that does not mean the show is appropriating it to promote it. And in our own history the Greek pantheon was eclipsed by monotheism; this wouldn't be following that unusual of a pattern.
Also? It's a cult led by GAIUS BALTAR. Why give the monotheistic banner to the man who would most likely be awarded the title of the show's villain?
How? There's no place for him in RDM's endgame. I see that now.
I don't know how you can speak with such certainty, because I'm the Oracle around here. ;) RDM says things to the contrary in his podcast, too. But also -- we aren't even to the midway point of the season, isn't it a little too soon to think you know how things will play out, and that you will be deeply disappointed by it? I am sorry for your woe but I am also confused. Why write it off before you've actually seen it?
Lee's place in the endgame is in leading the civilians, and I bet his place will also be beside Kara. I am absolutely sure that the entire Family Adama will all be crucially involved in the series finale. There, I predict it! Go Lee. :D
Re: part 1 (sorry I got long): on Cylons
Date: 2008-05-12 06:58 am (UTC)Ok, that makes sense. At least, I can understand it as an intellectual position. I think my problem is I don't see them covering the necessary ground in the 14 episodes they have left. Especially going at the sloooow pace they are right now! I think it would take years to truly come to terms with what they've done and to explore their capacity for change: I don't see that being acknowledged on the show. I agree that there IS a flicker of hope for the Cylons--I just needed a lot more of them to be a lot further along in their development if the humans are going to hook up with them soon. Does that make sense?
I so don't really get why you and DB still mistrust Athena--is it just because she is a Cylon?
I can't speak for DB, but for me, until recently, it's because I mistrust both all Cylons and RDM. ;) I have been expecting RDM to switchflick her for the 'Shock!' value for a long time. But now that I've had my epiphany about his endgame, I see that it's not in his best interests to do so. So following this episode I probably trust her in a way I didn't before. I actually really like her character (as I think I mentioned to you in chat) so the distrust was never of her, it's of the plotting.
But there are those like Helo and Adama and Racetrack and even Lee who have come to accept her. That gives me hope for humanity, too.
Yes! I like that too. And it's one reason I'm really 'into' the Helo/Athena relationship. I did acknowledge in my post that there are individuals who represent some hope for both humans and Cylons. And notably they are the two who have had love relationships with humans. But this only allows me to hope that a few individual Cylons will experience attachment to humans in this way. There simply isn't time for them all to! I would be fine with an ending where a few Cylons join humanity on Earth... (although the inevitable Sam-Kara babies would still make me sick) but I don't think that's what we're going to get. I think we're going to get a full two-races-merge ending. And as collectives I don't buy that. Perhaps it comes back to my mistrust of humanity as a collective? Or of any collective? I believe that individuals of either race can overcome their baser aspects. But can they do so en masse? I don't think so.
I'm sorry that the only characters who engage you are all human ones. (And I hope for your sake Lee is not a Cylon!)
I'm starting to hope for my sake that he IS! Hee. It would be about the only thing that could sell me onto this Cylon bandwagon... once I realised that the gap I was feeling was because I wasn't really invested in any Cylon characters, I started wishing RDM had made someone I love a Cylon just so I could join everyone else...
could you explain your aversion a bit more to me? Why are all of them irredemable in your eyes?
Um, because they are chilling killing machines? They committed mass genocide. They killed the loved ones of every member of the Galactica family that I love, and many more besides... they justified it in the name of religion or destiny or their own superiority. To turn around and say 'oops maybe we were wrong' afterwards is not enough--they need to face the consequences of their actions. Athena and Caprica defected. Yay. They're two Cylons versus thousands. If I see the others starting to change, I'll be happier.
If their suffering is such that makes living feel like torture, then death would be a mercy
Well then I don't buy that it was a mercy in the case of that Six. She could have lived!
Re: part 1 (sorry I got long): on Cylons and trauma and monotheism
Date: 2008-05-12 06:59 am (UTC)Don't you see something chilling in the fact that she felt the need to experience the act of killing an innocent with her own bare hands? I didn't even know it had been read as a mercy killing until months after I saw it. I just read it as Six having a kind of sick masochistic pull towards the experience. It resonated for me somehow with the aspect of herself that delights in seducing Baltar: it's a kind of love-hate relationship in which she exercises power but also experiences strong emotion. I think that's attractive to her.
You can't see anything at all in the way that Six reviled what her own life had become? She said that there was no way for her to work through the trauma
ANY trauma victim would say that! Of course she felt like that. Especially when seconds ago she came face to face with her oppressor. If I came face to face with someone who raped me, I'm sure I'd feel the same way! But it's not true--it could be overcome, with a lot of time and patience and work. But the fact that Nathalie was willing to take that at face value, the fact she had such a dark view that she thought it was insurmountable (if she even really cared at all--I rather thought Tricia was playing it that she didn't), doesn't make me very convinced that she's going to be the sort of person who will handle reconciliation well.
in our own history the Greek pantheon was eclipsed by monotheism; this wouldn't be following that unusual of a pattern
Agreed. That's actually one of the main reasons I find it yawn-enducing. It's so predictable! And it seems to validate that as a natural evolution process, which I find rather culturalist as a concept.
Also? It's a cult led by GAIUS BALTAR. Why give the monotheistic banner to the man who would most likely be awarded the title of the show's villain?
But it's the final arc of the show! You don't think that this is the time of Gaius's redemption? I think RDM is keeping things somewhat muddy, not making Gaius a completely sympathetic figure, but he has spent a lot of screentime showing that despite Gaius being unlikeable and self-interested, his miracles are 'real'. Why do that if it's not to set up that his religion, if not him personally, has substance?
Re: part 1 (sorry I got long)
Date: 2008-05-12 07:01 am (UTC)Now I can't argue with that... :D
RDM says things to the contrary in his podcast, too
RDM obfuscates a lot, he contradicts his own intentions, he changes his mind, and I often experience a disconnect between what he says he was meaning to do and how I actually experienced the episode. The man needs a good editor. *grumbles*
I am sorry for your woe but I am also confused. Why write it off before you've actually seen it?
I'm sorry, D. I have been in your shoes when I've seen others seem to 'give up' on the show. I'm not a giver-upper usually but the show's been slowly destroying my faith this season. It's hurt me so deeply... DB can tell you how distraught I was. I could barely watch. And I haven't given up watching, I hope to be proved wrong! It heartens me that smart people like you are enjoying it. But I think realising why I wasn't (because I'm not invested in the Cylons--I don't feel compassion for them en masse) made me realise there was really no hope for me. It hurts me SO MUCH to see Kara surrounded by Cylons, to see her caught between two Cylon men and to find out that her destiny is all Cylon. I get dizzy and sick thinking about it. I know I'm overinvested... I just hate that they're shaping her up for this. I'd always anticipated a pretty bleak ending but I thought fourth season would be more interesting, have more moments of light as well as darkness. Also, my worst fear all along has been Kara being a Cylon, and while I don't think she is one, I do think she's their 'Angel' and is linked to them. She's on the Team.
Lee's place in the endgame is in leading the civilians, and I bet his place will also be beside Kara.
I don't know what gives you this faith. He's not even been in the last two eps! And Jamie was unhappy with Lee's plot in S4: now I see why. So you think Lee is going to jump on the Cylon bandwagon too? Interesting. He is the one character that could sell me on that journey. But it would have to be written convincingly... because I don't see Lee, or his father, rolling over for the Cylons that easily. And accepting monotheism? I don't see that as very likely!
I guess one of the things I let go of in this episode was the hope in a Kara/Lee ending. Before it seemed inevitable to me that they would reconnect in at least some way before the end. But now it seems unlikely because it would be meaningless... it doesn't symbolise anything. Whereas a Kara/Anders final unity moment? Totally would sell RDM's 'two races unite' plot. Perhaps Lee will be up the back waving a little flag or something... I'm just not sure why yet.
Re: part 1 (sorry I got long)
Date: 2008-05-12 09:25 am (UTC)Eep! I fear this will be another case of perhaps we're both fundamentally pessimistic, but while I ship Kara/Sam, and shipper credo requires that I never give up all hope, I see the chances of this as vanishingly slim. Maybe it's just my horror at the idea of Kara ever having kids, but I think the "children of the one reborn" refers to the alliance she helped found. Not actual children. But if Kara does have to have a Hybrid baby, I'm sure Sam will father it right before he dies and she and Lee will fight over whether to name it Samuel Adama or Samuel Thrace. And then it'll be a girl. ;) (Not that I see this as likely!)
As I said, I'm convinced Sam has a role to play in Kara's destiny (as he did, in a scary way, this week), but I don't think that means they'll end up together. From my perspective as someone who's invested in that relationship, it's already be retconned somewhat. The Farm - Collaborators (supposed to be Sam's last episode); Kara was written as very much in love with him, even though you could certainly argue she was also running from the more fraught relationship with Lee. Unfinished Business - Maelstrom, she was written as loving them both, but being more in love with Lee. Ties That Bind made me think they're going to retcon it even further, so the point where it would make Kara's actions retroactively even worse than they were before. Kara needs every last sympathy point she can get when it comes to relationships! *g*
Because in order for Sam to play whatever role he's supposed to in Kara's destiny, they have to keep them together - and him devoted to her - but Kara being emotionally distant because this is the last season and K/L is the OTP. Kara and Lee shared a wonderful emotional scene together, and Jamie Bamber may have said it was final, but actors contradict themselves all the time. Kara and Sam have had nothing like that. I think that for the characters, that has more to do with the fact Kara thought she was never going to see Lee again, whereas with Sam whenever they're together she's been caught up in her mission, and shutting everybody out. But the fact remains that the writers are doing it that way for a reason, and I think it's got to be a Kara/Lee endgame - even if that just means they have a nice scene together before Kara ascends. ;)
I agree Six could have lived - "couldn't let it go" I thought referred to her need for revenge. But I think Natalie made up her mind when she heard not just Sam but Athena say that they couldn't let this go, either. If Sam *did* kill her, the other Cylons would be looking for revenge and the cycle would continue. I think it was all about preserving the alliance. If you watch Kara, you'll see she gets this anguished look on her face, and at first I was surprised to see her so moved at the Six's pain, but then she reaches for her sidearm. She can't ultimately do it, but she was thinking of killing Sam, I think. I think the purpose of the scene was to show us that the two leaders will do anything, even turn on those they love (and I do think the Six/Six kiss was meant to show love, though it came off to many as pandering) for this thing that's taking place.
Now, I agree that Six could have disarmed Sam, since she got control of the gun, so it doesn't really work. But I think that's a writing mistake, if I'm right about what they were going for. Even though I can totally prove with screencaps and graphs that by the time Sam decided to act, (5 seconds!) he had no choice but to shoot Gaeta, the more important point was what you said: Ron wants us to think it was necessary. Just like in Razor, Ron said he didn't feel they had fully justified Lee's decision - and I felt that way too - I ultimately decided for the sake of my sanity to just say, in the world of the show, this was necessary. BSG loves the hard choices and it seldom makes any act fully right or wrong, so it makes sense. I think it was all for the sake of the theme.
Re: part 1 (sorry I got long)
Date: 2008-05-12 09:34 am (UTC)Re: part 1 (sorry I got long)
Date: 2008-05-12 11:56 am (UTC)HA! Yes! Thank you! :D
"I never did anything to her?" This worries me. ;)
Yes, a great deal.
Since I'm also convinced that Ron thinks we'll all be Saved By Guilt, I hold out hope for some Cylon introspection, for more than just Caprica and Athena.
Huh? I don't really get the 'Saved by Guilt' thing. But I'll try to find some hope that more than just Caprica and Athena will express some remorse... I just wish they'd hurry up and do so quick quick! There are only 14 eps left!!! :(
Re: part 1 (sorry I got long)
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Date: 2008-05-12 11:53 am (UTC)Goodness! Does it? No-one told me! I've very rarely held any hope for Kara/Lee. I pretty much expect nothing from my ship. The rare exception was that I did think things looked pretty promising at the end of Season 3 and then was in complete denial about their final kiss. The penny's dropped now. I'm back to complete pessismism. :) My ship is doomed.
refers to the alliance she helped found
That would be easier for me to stomach.
I'm sure Sam will father it right before he dies and she and Lee will fight over whether to name it Samuel Adama or Samuel Thrace.
EEEEEK! I hope that never happens. Lee deserves better than Sam's leftovers. (Even though I actually think he likes Sam now--I just don't think he'd ever think it appropriate to step in Sam's place. Ever.)
Jamie Bamber may have said it was final, but actors contradict themselves all the time.
Jamie doesn't. I've always found him completely clear-sighted about his character.
, whereas with Sam whenever they're together she's been caught up in her mission, and shutting everybody out.
This is true. I know she's been shutting Sam out, but I think that's part of her journey at the moment. As you say: she's shutting everyone out. But I think what she's about to face will show her that she can't do it completely alone. Sam's going to be there and he's going to reveal he's a Cylon, and then he's going to offer her hope--because if someone she loves is a Cylon, then is it really so bad to ally with them? Didn't you point out that they only set up the Kara 'I would shoot you if you were a Cylon' thing in order to debunk it later?
I think it's got to be a Kara/Lee endgame
People seem to believe this 'just because'. In your case, I think you're just naturally pessimistic about your ship. ;) I just don't see why K/L would be on the cards, when Kara's plot is entirely about Cylons.
at first I was surprised to see her so moved at the Six's pain, but then she reaches for her sidearm. She can't ultimately do it, but she was thinking of killing Sam, I think
I rewatched. You are right. I think that's the only explanation too.
I think the purpose of the scene was to show us that the two leaders will do anything, even turn on those they love (and I do think the Six/Six kiss was meant to show love, though it came off to many as pandering) for this thing that's taking place.
Now that you've shown me the Kara parallel (which I definitely missed the first time round), I can see that is what the scene was meant to show us. It didn't work successfully for me because I don't buy that the Six needed to die. But I think that's what the intention of the scene was.
Now, I agree that Six could have disarmed Sam, since she got control of the gun, so it doesn't really work. But I think that's a writing mistake, if I'm right about what they were going for.
Yup, I think it was just a writing mistake.
the more important point was what you said: Ron wants us to think it was necessary. Just like in Razor, Ron said he didn't feel they had fully justified Lee's decision - and I felt that way too - I ultimately decided for the sake of my sanity to just say, in the world of the show, this was necessary.
Nice parallel. And yes, for all that I vehemently oppose Sam's actions, I do think the more important point is that TPTB wanted us to think they were necessary. I guess I'm just finding myself at odds with their intention about 80 per cent of the time in season 4. It's like I can see how things are meant to work on me (I'm meant to think Sam's actions were 'necessary', I'm meant to think this Six 'had' to die), but I just don't get that organically. It's very kind of you all to help me work through it afterwards: it just kind of sucks that I don't get this directly from the show, you know? That's why I'm feeling so out of kilter with the show. I watch every ep and I can see TPTB pulling the strings, except I'm not attached to any of them in the right way...
Re: part 1 (sorry I got long)
Date: 2008-05-12 10:09 pm (UTC)Heh - maybe it's just the alterna-shipper credo? That pretty much requires denial and a lowered set of expectations. My shipper hope is mainly focused on wanting some sort of meaningful, positive-for-them-both resolution to Kara/Sam. If I need more than that, there's always fanfic. ;)
Didn't you point out that they only set up the Kara 'I would shoot you if you were a Cylon' thing in order to debunk it later?
Er, well yes. ;) Not that I'm sure of that, mind you! It's the last season, so they don't have to keep Sam alive or worry about making Kara unsympathetic by having her kill a popular character. I just think that's the kind of statement that has to be paid off, either by Kara finding out and killing him, or trying to, or by her finding out and reacting differently than she thought she would. Obviously, I'm fervently hoping for the second option! But that could be a meaningful story to tell without the two of them ending up together having babies.
ETA:
I guess I'm just finding myself at odds with their intention about 80 per cent of the time in season 4. It's like I can see how things are meant to work on me (I'm meant to think Sam's actions were 'necessary', I'm meant to think this Six 'had' to die), but I just don't get that organically. It's very kind of you all to help me work through it afterwards: it just kind of sucks that I don't get this directly from the show, you know?
*nod nod* Yes, I definitely know that feeling. I've had that experience many times, where you can see what the writers want you to think, what they're trying to get across, and it's just not getting across. I hate that! And I think it's particularly bad when you're not emotionally onboard with what's going on. I read a post from someone who's very much a Kara non-fan, and she said that as a nurse, there was no way she could accept Kara giving Feelix the morpha after treating his leg. It just showed she wanted him to suffer for the mutiny. While to me, it just showed that the writers wanted to wring every anguished scream from Gaeta they could. But when you're not onboard with whatever's going on, whether it be Kara doing something right for once, or Sam "needing" to shoot Gaeta, or the bigger issue of cylon/human alliance, you really need the writers to make an airtight case.
Further thoughts and thanks
Date: 2008-05-12 08:05 am (UTC)I was thinking further about this on the way home, because that idea (writing it off before I see it) it is repugnant to me too. Actually the discussion in the comments here has helped clarify my thoughts a little and I've found some slivers of hope I didn't have before.
I think Step 1 was: Admitting I Have a Problem (with the direction of the show). I'm now moving towards Step 2: Acceptance, which is probably linked to relinquishing myself to RDM or something... ;) I was hiding it for the last couple of weeks, hoping it would get better. But what I really needed to do was admit how I felt and why.
I've worked out there are a few things left that the show could do which would make this whole idea work for me. And while I'm not really sure any of them will happen, you are quite right that I cannot rule that out until I see it. They are:
- exploring the backstory about how the Cylons got programmed and showing that it was a human that did so. As I said somewhere in here, that would do a lot to level the playing field between humans and Cylons because it would make them both puppets and victims of their ancestry.
- destroying all the truly repugnant Cylons (which unfortunately means all the male ones--minus the FF men)
- Making Kendra the Final Cylon. (I love her! I want her back! She could be a Cylon I would invest in!)
- Selling me on Lee's reaction to these developments and him agreeing that uniting with the Cylons is a good outcome (this is a deal-clincher for me--if Lee doesn't think so, there's no hope I will!).
- No Cybrid babies for Kara! No breeding with Leoben or Sam no matter what that evil hybrid says!
- Monotheism being debunked.
- The sexual politics to miraculously improve (These last two wouldn't be enough on their own but would help.)
If all that fails... Kara 'icing those bitches' (nuking all Cylons), as DB put it, in the final episode would do nicely. ;)
So I'm going to find my way back to the show... now that I have admitted that I'm not onboard with the whole show, I will accept that I'm watching for my characters: Lee, Kara, Laura, Gaeta, Kendra (return please!) and Helo. For ages I've been trying and failing to like the other characters. I think I just have to accept that I don't... but remain open-minded and hope that things change for the better. And lower my expectations for the episodes--instead of hoping for more plot development of the sort I'd like, I'll just hope for some really solid interesting scenes for at least one of my characters. *nods*
THANK YOU. You helped me find some sense!
Oh, and Step 12 is 'finding the perfect song to express all this in vid format', which I did on the way home from work... :D So if worst comes to worst, I can at least make a bitter but awesome vid about it. *g*
More Counsel part 1
Date: 2008-05-12 02:03 pm (UTC)exploring the backstory about how the Cylons got programmed and showing that it was a human that did so. As I said somewhere in here, that would do a lot to level the playing field between humans and Cylons because it would make them both puppets and victims of their ancestry.
I am certain we will get the Cylon backstory, though probably they will save some crucial details for the end. They seem tied to the final Five and the Thirteenth tribe somehow, so perhaps the Cylon-human interconnection is greater than we'd thought. But I do see where you and I differ more clearly in our approach to them now: I take the fact that they had been puppets of their ancestry as a given. I think about "Downloaded" especially. Caprica has just been instrumental in the destruction of humanity and the man she loved. She is reeling with this and is filled with doubt; it makes her an alien in her own society at the same time she is being celebrated as a hero by the Cylon for enabling this mass murder. She was "corrupted by her experiences," like Boomer. Questioning the Plan and failing to reassimilate with uncaring ease back into the fold brings the threat of immediate boxing. I am sure many more Cylons like herself were boxed, too. But who gave them this Plan? Why? Who is "God"/their Creator? We need to know that to know who/what is ultimately responsible for setting them on this path. Caprica and her fellow Cylons were just "born knowing" that God wanted them to destroy humanity and that was the right thing to do. We need to know why.
The Cylons I like a have a Greek tragedy aspect, sleepers and non-sleepers -- you think you know who you are and what you're doing, and then something comes along to open your eyes, and you see everything's been a lie. All your certainty collapses and you face the limits of your knowledge. Lots of Cylons haven't made that leap yet but they could. There will be no massive healing in this generation, no, but if it's in their interests of survival, I do think they could forge a believable alliance with some of them.
destroying all the truly repugnant Cylons (which unfortunately means all the male ones--minus the FF men)
I'm down with that. It's why I thought the Cavils and the Dorals would be on the enemy side (and I'm looking forward to the others kicking their asses) -- they're the most unyielding and enforce the Plan at all costs. They show little hope for change or signs of remorse. And I'd also like the castration of Leoben! But I'll take him shaping up and stopping with the mindfraks and creepiness instead. :)
Re: More Counsel part 1
Date: 2008-05-12 02:39 pm (UTC)Aww, thanks! It's ok. It's been comforting to find out that other people feel the same way and I'm not totally alone. And I got to admit how batshit Sam made me! That made me feel lots better. :D
I am certain we will get the Cylon backstory, though probably they will save some crucial details for the end.
I just hope they don't wait too long--because personally I really need that backstory. I've wanted it for a long long time. Actually, right from the Pilot I've always wanted to know more about how the Cylons evolved, about the way their sentience worked, about the way they evolved from machines... it frustrated the hell out of me to have all that left kind of misty and uncertain. I see that they're spinning out the suspense and mystery... it just doesn't work for me. I want concrete facts! *stamps foot impatiently* I was very excited, for instance, to get what we uncovered in Razor and the Adama flashbacks... if there was more of that sort of stuff in Season 4, I'd be way more excited.
take the fact that they had been puppets of their ancestry as a given
Ahhh... ok, yes, that's a crucial difference!
I think about "Downloaded" especially.
I found that the most boring episode ever. I've only watched it once. It had no Lee I recall... (Yeah, I'm giggling at my shallowness too!) I should go back and rewatch it perhaps?
who gave them this Plan? Why? Who is "God"/their Creator? We need to know that to know who/what is ultimately responsible for setting them on this path.
Yes! Agreed! I desperately need to know this! It would be the first step towards me being able to empathise with them, I think.. I don't want them to reveal that only in the final ep! OMG, that would be so annoying--I'd have to care about them retrospectively!
you think you know who you are and what you're doing, and then something comes along to open your eyes, and you see everything's been a lie. All your certainty collapses and you face the limits of your knowledge.
That sounds good in principle. But I feel like we've seen this played out several times on the show and I've found it yawn-enducing each time. it's not the concept--it's the execution. For instance, Boomer? Totally wished she'd shot herself properly. Galen? I felt like deja vu! Just shoot yourself already! And I know this is irrational. But I think what it comes down to for me is that none of the actors' performances (coupled with the writing) have really sold me on that journey yet. And yet the concept sounds like it could be interesting! That's why I'm honest in admitting that if one of the characters I loved (played by an actor who 'pings' right for me) went through this then maybe I'd be seeing what everyone else seems to be seeing. And honestly, I have tried. It took SO MUCH for me to come out of the closet and admit that I just don't get this whole Cylon-human parity thing.
It's why I thought the Cavils and the Dorals would be on the enemy side (and I'm looking forward to the others kicking their asses) -- they're the most unyielding and enforce the Plan at all costs.
Mmm... it worries me a great deal that they're still out there. *frets* And while Simon didn't have much to do, he was creepy as all get out in the Farm and he needs to go too.
I'd also like the castration of Leoben!
Same. I vote for total annhiliation of Leoben as Choice 1, but I'd accept castration if it was accompanied by amputation of his tongue so he would stop babbling at Kara and messing with her mind!
More Counsel part 2
Date: 2008-05-12 02:08 pm (UTC)Ah, well. I could lie and pretend to use my hybrid powers just to cheer you, but no guarantees there. But really, it could be anyone you already know and love...so maybe you could use that feeling! Why would you still be invested in Kendra or Lee even if they were a Cylon? Because you love them, and being born a Cylon wouldn't be their fault. They wouldn't be guilty of anything. Your love would be the same! Sniff. And I secretly hope to get you invested in Caprica and Tigh and Athena someday.
Selling me on Lee's reaction to these developments and him agreeing that uniting with the Cylons is a good outcome (this is a deal-clincher for me--if Lee doesn't think so, there's no hope I will!).
I think that's the reason Lee is with the human fleet and Kara has a link with the Cylons, to be honest. Even if there is a bumpy road of Lee's and others' acceptance of the Cylons (and rightly so) I think he'll get there. Not with ALL of them, mind you; I am betting some Cylons will remain the enemy till the bitter end.
Plus, I've already accepted that Kara may be half Cylon (Jacob said Socrata might be the last Cylon shortly after the s3 finale, and I've been intrigued ever since!) so the Lee/Kara relationship could be part of the unity pattern as well. :)
No Cybrid babies for Kara! No breeding with Leoben or Sam no matter what that evil hybrid says!
Oh, K! Is this what is bothering you? Okay, well, I'm the hybrid expert and I think the children of the one reborn is metaphorical (Galactica is her 'family'). But even if it's literal, what in the world is there that says her children won't be Lee's? That would be awesome. His name is from Adam, after all. Uberpatriarch runs in the bloodline.
Monotheism being debunked.
I don't know about debunked, but nothing on BSG is a simple positive. Even if it's part of Gaius' arc to redeem himself, this will be a complex thing. I think his cult already hasn't been presented in a good light and will continue to be suspect.
The sexual politics to miraculously improve (These last two wouldn't be enough on their own but would help.)
Sigh. There are limits to my powers! I agree, it would be nice if we got a sex scene that was actually...I don't know, sexy? All the most tender intimate moments in s4 have been between Helo and Athena, Kara and Lee, Roslin and Adama, all with their clothes on. But since I'm being chipper optimist girl I will say those are couples that are getting a lot of investment by the show. (Ha, I am such a shipper. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong!)
If all that fails... Kara 'icing those bitches' (nuking all Cylons), as DB put it, in the final episode would do nicely. ;)
Hahaha! YES. Apocalypse means 'unveiling' but it can also mean destruction. As in, Kara kicks the entire universe's ass.
Thank you for listening. :) I hope you're still my WT but I'll love you even if you leave the show. And if it turns out horrible we can have a huge mockery party afterward. I am really, really looking forward to that vid.
Hugs!
PS RDM wasn't vague on that podcast about Lee's arc, he was emphatic and clear. "The Lee Adama story is MADE by that move" of putting him in the civilian government. And he can't change his mind, he's already written the finale. I still think Lee and Kara are Destiny's Children!
Re: More Counsel part 2
Date: 2008-05-12 03:00 pm (UTC)Right! I do get it. I just haven't experienced it yet. *pouts* This is what I realised. I thought there was something else wrong with me that I wasn't getting from the show what others are getting, but when I looked around and realised that everyone was invested in at least one of the Cylons, it finally clicked.
I WANTS A CYLON, DAMMIT! ;p GIMME! But it has to be either Lee, or preferably Kendra yespleaseIluffher.
ot with ALL of them, mind you; I am betting some Cylons will remain the enemy till the bitter end.
I am HOPING so. That would make it a lot easier for me to swallow. *nods*
I've already accepted that Kara may be half Cylon (Jacob said Socrata might be the last Cylon shortly after the s3 finale, and I've been intrigued ever since!) so the Lee/Kara relationship could be part of the unity pattern as well.
Maybe I should start hoping for that? Wow, how the tables have turned! :)
Oh, K! Is this what is bothering you?
YES! Meep! The Hybrid said it! *WAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIILLLLLS* It's all over, D! No more Kara/Lee ship. :(((((
the children of the one reborn is metaphorical (Galactica is her 'family').
But... her 'children' are also 'end of line'. they can only be end of line if they produce hybrids, right? Otherwise the human race continues to exist in pure form somewhere... so either they all breed hybrids (ick! makes me think they end up in a Farm) or it's more literal than that and it's Kara-babies.
See. I thought about this A LOT.
what in the world is there that says her children won't be Lee's?
I guess they could be if Kara's the final Cylon? I should totally start hoping for that right!? Omg, but that would be embarrassing. Surely noone thinks Kara is the final Cylon? I couldn't be so daft as to think that!
I agree, it would be nice if we got a sex scene that was actually...I don't know, sexy?
Hee. what a novel concept! Trouble is: I think RDM thinks these sex scenes are sexy! And heaps of Kara/Sam fangirls were loving their sex scene this season so I think it all depends on your perspective.
I will say those are couples that are getting a lot of investment by the show.
I love your optimism but to me it feels like they threw the Kara/Lee shippers one last bone before getting on with the 'real business' of the show. But Roslin and Adama have been getting lots of (boring to me) screentime. And yay Helo and Athena! I like them. Perhaps I should just try extra hard to ship them... it seems like a happier ship. :D It even has a cute baby!
As in, Kara kicks the entire universe's ass.
Yes please. But Lee needs to be by her side. ;)
Re: More Counsel part 2
Date: 2008-05-12 04:14 pm (UTC)OH MY GOODNESS. She said nothing of the kind.
Look, even if "children of the one reborn" is literal (which I think is a big stretch)--how are you getting that? Even if the endgame is all about Cylon-human unity, Kara's human babies could be the ones to hook up with Cylons or hybrids down the road. Calm down!
And heaps of Kara/Sam fangirls were loving their sex scene this season so I think it all depends on your perspective.
Yeah, I get that it's not universal...and I see a huge amount of justification going on for her treatment of him. But I dislike power inbalances, especially in close relationships; it squicks me right out. And as far as pushing a spouse around and yelling degrading things at them -- well, double standards also bother the hell out of me. I still think we weren't supposed to see it as a huge romantic "awww" moment, though. Even their postcoital convo was (as usual) very one-sided: K talks, S listens, S doesn't get to open up. That pairing hasn't been about mutual support since s3, and it quite often is about missed opportunities for genuine two-way communication and connection (and that's usually Kara's fault). The only thing that reconciles me to the way he puts up with it and never makes her even apologize is that Sam is a Cylon. After EoJ I joked about wanting Dee to be one, because that would explain so much about why she was putting up with Lee without standing up to him. Anders tried to walk away so many times but I really think he can't. He's programmed to protect her and always will be in a subordinate support role where she is concerned, I think. He (and Tory and Tigh) are like helper maidens in myths and fairy tales, there to assist the Big Hero.
Re: my optimism about K/L. I think my optimism is fully justified by the pattern of departure and return that has played out every other season. Where did your zen go!?
With these two, it's never over. No matter how many times they seemed to want to scare us into believing that it was. I read an interview with Michael Taylor reassuring a K/L shipper and he indicated that the investment in this pair would pay off. Come on! They are a pair. Lee is just a Big Hero and not subordinate to Kara's storyline, so they're on separate journeys for now.
(And I don't find A/R screentime boring! Awww.)
Yes please. But Lee needs to be by her side. ;)
He will be! Please hang in there!
Re: More Counsel part 2
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Date: 2008-05-12 03:02 pm (UTC)I hope you're still my WT but I'll love you even if you leave the show.
I won't leave. There's no leaving. As I said in my post, I'm a completionist. I'm honestly trying to come to terms with my difficult emotions about this and I'm trying to find a way to reconnect with the story.
And if it turns out horrible we can have a huge mockery party afterward.
Yes please! Mockery does soothe one's soul when things get tough going. :) And when it's all played out it's fair game right? Much better than preempting it. *nods*
I am really, really looking forward to that vid.
Ha! You don't know what it is yet... it's very snarky.
RDM wasn't vague on that podcast about Lee's arc, he was emphatic and clear. "The Lee Adama story is MADE by that move" of putting him in the civilian government. And he can't change his mind, he's already written the finale.
I heard that. And my stomach sank. It's one of the things that led to my negative epiphany about the show. Actually several things he said in the podcasts led to it... But with that one, I worry very much because I don't feel RDM's ever known what to do with Lee. But Jamie has, and Jamie's unhappy. That carries a lot more weight with me. So the fact that Jamie is unhappy right at the time RDM is all 'yay Lee story great!' makes me think I'm not going to like it.
And I heard he'd actually rewritten the last eps (probably to make them more 'shocking'). That makes me deeply worried. RDM himself changing his mind? Him not having a clear plan at all really? This worries me.
Sorry. I ended on a negative note again: I did not mean to. But it was RDM who made me anxious to begin with with all his talk about how sympathetic he'd made the Cylons and how it was unusual to go into the 'villain's perspective' (er, not really? has he watched Smallville? :p). And I was there thinking 'hmm, do you really think you've successfully done that? how deluded are you?' That's when I realised: oh, he HAS done that for most of the audience--just not me.
Re: More Counsel part 2
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Date: 2008-05-12 03:14 pm (UTC)I am glad we all agree on this one thing on my wish list. Kara kicking some major ass at the end. I KNOW this will happen and now, Hybrid!Dionusia has confirmed it.
I have to go to work but I have lots of thoughts on this discussion that I will get to later. Right now, I'm just thinking, the show is doing something right and if it gets us all talking about it like this! Maybe that is the Plan after all!
Re: More Counsel part 2
From:Re: More Counsel part 2
From:part 2
Date: 2008-05-12 03:39 am (UTC)In my view the show seems to endorse Adama-style guilt instead: acknowledge the mistakes of the past, recognize them, try to do better, but look to the future.
It used to. That stopped in Season 3. Look at what happened in this episode: we have Laura telling Adama to 'have faith' instead. Earlier in the season we had her goading him about believing in Kara's 'miracle' despite being an atheist. She'll work on him and he will change. And it's very Papadama-like to take the easy road when it's offered to him--it would allow him to not face what he's done to Lee and Kara and the others in his care.
When Laura first came in and he talked about feeling like he might never see them again, that he'd lost all of them... that's exactly how I felt about the show. I empathised with him for once! But then Laura offered him her hope. Only I don't buy it. I see how the show is supposed to work on me: it just doesn't.
She just (like Lee) had a vision about death
Lee's was what Laura originally described though: no warm homecoming, no loving family, just sinking into empty black nothingness. I so badly wanted him to rush up and say 'no you were right the FIRST TIME. There is nothing after life!' I missed my atheist boy. :((
I still think the story will be a good one.
Sounds like it will be: for you. I'm fascinated that you're so onboard with the Cylons, that you find them so sympathetic. I didn't realise that for a long time. I guess we're not so WT-y after all? :((
I miss being on the same page as you, D! Waaah!