Katee and Kara/Lee
May. 22nd, 2007 08:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
bop_radarKatee Sackhoff was interviewed at the Vulkon Women of SciFi event (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
proggrrl has posted links to video interviews from the event). One of the comments Katee made really threw me for a loop. I've been resisting posting about this all day, but I don't seem able to let it go.
So Katee says Kara loves Sam more than she loves Lee. This came as a real shock to me. I respect Sam's importance in Kara's life and I have no doubt that she loves him. I also would fully understand if Katee expressed the sentiment that Sam's healthier for Kara (I personally disagree, but it's understandable that Katee would be in the mindset of her character to this extent). But that she loves him more? I'm shocked. Season 3 was the first time I felt I really saw Kara's love for Lee shine through--in UB they seemed to be playing that Lee was really 'the one' after all, that Kara had only fled from the relationship out of fear and that she'd been drawn back to connect with him despite herself. Then, in Maelstrom, we saw her express her wistfulness that they would never be more than hotshot pilot and CAG. Lee was the last person she spoke to before death and the first person she spoke to on return. It all seemed to fit, but apparently that wasn't the way Kara saw it.
I've seen a lot of people shrugging off Katee's comments comfortably, and it's true that the actor's take on the character is not the be-all and end-all of what we'll see on the show. However, there are a couple of reasons why I find it hard not to take Katee's comment seriously:
- Firstly, Katee herself says she knows Starbuck better than anyone. The actors do seem to 'own' their characters in this way on the show. Jamie certainly does, and I always respect what he has to say about his character. So it goes against my instincts not to show Katee that same courtesy, not to defer to her opinion as well.
- Several people have mentioned Katee changing her story from interview to interview. However, I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't realise that saying Kara loves Sam more wouldn't be a big deal to a lot of fans. Furthermore, Katee fleshes it out quite a lot. She mentions being a little shocked by Sam's 'you're not the first' call to Lee--but not, as I was, shocked because I thought Lee was actually really significant to Kara, but shocked because she 'really really loves this guy (Sam)'. The implication is 'Kara wouldn't do that--she cares about Sam too much--it's only Lee she's a bit confused about, but she's sorted that out now too'.
-wisteria_ has an excellent post which explains why she's OK with Katee's comment and one of the things she points out is that Katee often expresses what Kara's mindset is at a given point in time. That seems true of what I've seen of Katee's interviews. However, if so, I misread Kara in the later half of this season (again!). And it does worry me that this is Kara's mindset going into Season 4. And this is where my Lee-protectiveness comes out...
Lee has lost everything in the later half of the season--his relationships have fallen apart or devolved even further into animosity than they were before, he's given up his role as CAG, he's lost Kara. He finds some core inner strength, it's true, but the only real shining light at the end of the season for Lee was Kara's resurrection. If not for that, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Lee push himself recklessly into that Cylon battle and either get killed or come back but get no acknowledgment for his efforts and return to the same lonely position he was in before he dived for the viper once again.
Dee's left Lee, but Kara has Sam to come back to--and apparently that's exactly what she wants to do. Presumably, then, Season 4 will be about Kara finding out Sam's a Cylon and struggling with that. It's the final season--that's not exactly going to allow much time for her to backflip again and suddenly decide it's Lee she really loves.
Just the other day,queenofthorns observed that most K/L shippers seem to be Kara fans (if they have to choose one character) rather than Lee fans. I count myself in the minority who'd choose Lee. I do love Kara, but she baffles and frustrates me, whereas my love for Lee stands independent of the ship. So now I'm just clinging to the hope that Lee gets lots of opportunity to show just how strong and awesome he can be in Season 4, sans Dee, sans Kara. (Though why they had Dee break up with him, if they're not going to get Kara and Lee together, I really don't know--she has no other plot! Why couldn't he keep Dee if Kara doesn't care? *pouts* They really love tearing Lee to pieces.)
The other thing about Katee's comments that I found truly baffling was the idea that Kara's love for Sam is more adult, that their relationship is more mature. Quote:
She’s known Lee forever, they’ve been friends forever, and I think she’s confusing that for what real adult companionship and love is.
Hmmm. This perplexes me at all sorts of levels. Citing the friendship suggests that it's romantic and/or sexual feelings that Kara's lacking for Lee--but I don't think there's any doubt that she's quite happy to frak him, and she seemed totally swept away on New Caprica (albeit briefly). On the other hand, she mentions 'companionship', which is a good point. It's true that there's a whole range of issues that Kara has that Lee doesn't know about, and she shuts him out of a lot, so although they are friends they don't have that kind of total intimacy. But I don't think she has that with Sam either. Sam offers her no-strings-attached sex but that's hardly companionship. Some would argue this has allowed Kara to open up to Sam in her own time--there may be a case in that seeing as she did discuss her childhood abuse with him in Maelstrom. But she also shuts him down and pushes him away quite coldly as soon as she's done with him (usually straight after sex). I'd hardly call that a mature relationship. And I'd be very uncomfortable with Sam allowing that to continue on a longterm basis--it's gone on long enough--if Kara really sees her love for Sam as 'real' and 'adult' then she needs to make it a proper marriage. There's got to be some give and take. I see Kara take from Sam, but I don't see any give. So saying her love for him shows greater maturity than her love for Lee makes little sense to me.
Anyway, since this set my teeth on edge, I'm burying myself in loving Lee and Lee alone. So you can expect even more determined pimping of how great Lee is from me! *plots Lee spam* For starters, this has given me more motivation than ever to make that Lee character study vid. *g*
On the other hand, I'd like to say a big thank you to the Kara fangirls who did their utmost to talk moe out of my tailspin to day: especiallylatteaddict and daybreak777. Really, I do appreciate it! Even if I'm still not convinced. ;-)
And last but not least, today also saw the launch of![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
sasa_hq or 'Starbuck and Apollo Shippers Anonymous', for those of us who need support for that addiction... to quote the userinfo: 'Rather than trying to curb your obsession, SASA specializes in channelling it in healthy ways.' *lol*
Oh and someone needs to come over here and talkdionusia and I out of editing Sam out of our fannish creations as revenge. ;-)
proggrrl has posted links to video interviews from the event). One of the comments Katee made really threw me for a loop. I've been resisting posting about this all day, but I don't seem able to let it go.So Katee says Kara loves Sam more than she loves Lee. This came as a real shock to me. I respect Sam's importance in Kara's life and I have no doubt that she loves him. I also would fully understand if Katee expressed the sentiment that Sam's healthier for Kara (I personally disagree, but it's understandable that Katee would be in the mindset of her character to this extent). But that she loves him more? I'm shocked. Season 3 was the first time I felt I really saw Kara's love for Lee shine through--in UB they seemed to be playing that Lee was really 'the one' after all, that Kara had only fled from the relationship out of fear and that she'd been drawn back to connect with him despite herself. Then, in Maelstrom, we saw her express her wistfulness that they would never be more than hotshot pilot and CAG. Lee was the last person she spoke to before death and the first person she spoke to on return. It all seemed to fit, but apparently that wasn't the way Kara saw it.
I've seen a lot of people shrugging off Katee's comments comfortably, and it's true that the actor's take on the character is not the be-all and end-all of what we'll see on the show. However, there are a couple of reasons why I find it hard not to take Katee's comment seriously:
- Firstly, Katee herself says she knows Starbuck better than anyone. The actors do seem to 'own' their characters in this way on the show. Jamie certainly does, and I always respect what he has to say about his character. So it goes against my instincts not to show Katee that same courtesy, not to defer to her opinion as well.
- Several people have mentioned Katee changing her story from interview to interview. However, I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't realise that saying Kara loves Sam more wouldn't be a big deal to a lot of fans. Furthermore, Katee fleshes it out quite a lot. She mentions being a little shocked by Sam's 'you're not the first' call to Lee--but not, as I was, shocked because I thought Lee was actually really significant to Kara, but shocked because she 'really really loves this guy (Sam)'. The implication is 'Kara wouldn't do that--she cares about Sam too much--it's only Lee she's a bit confused about, but she's sorted that out now too'.
-
wisteria_ has an excellent post which explains why she's OK with Katee's comment and one of the things she points out is that Katee often expresses what Kara's mindset is at a given point in time. That seems true of what I've seen of Katee's interviews. However, if so, I misread Kara in the later half of this season (again!). And it does worry me that this is Kara's mindset going into Season 4. And this is where my Lee-protectiveness comes out...Lee has lost everything in the later half of the season--his relationships have fallen apart or devolved even further into animosity than they were before, he's given up his role as CAG, he's lost Kara. He finds some core inner strength, it's true, but the only real shining light at the end of the season for Lee was Kara's resurrection. If not for that, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Lee push himself recklessly into that Cylon battle and either get killed or come back but get no acknowledgment for his efforts and return to the same lonely position he was in before he dived for the viper once again.
Dee's left Lee, but Kara has Sam to come back to--and apparently that's exactly what she wants to do. Presumably, then, Season 4 will be about Kara finding out Sam's a Cylon and struggling with that. It's the final season--that's not exactly going to allow much time for her to backflip again and suddenly decide it's Lee she really loves.
Just the other day,
queenofthorns observed that most K/L shippers seem to be Kara fans (if they have to choose one character) rather than Lee fans. I count myself in the minority who'd choose Lee. I do love Kara, but she baffles and frustrates me, whereas my love for Lee stands independent of the ship. So now I'm just clinging to the hope that Lee gets lots of opportunity to show just how strong and awesome he can be in Season 4, sans Dee, sans Kara. (Though why they had Dee break up with him, if they're not going to get Kara and Lee together, I really don't know--she has no other plot! Why couldn't he keep Dee if Kara doesn't care? *pouts* They really love tearing Lee to pieces.)The other thing about Katee's comments that I found truly baffling was the idea that Kara's love for Sam is more adult, that their relationship is more mature. Quote:
She’s known Lee forever, they’ve been friends forever, and I think she’s confusing that for what real adult companionship and love is.
Hmmm. This perplexes me at all sorts of levels. Citing the friendship suggests that it's romantic and/or sexual feelings that Kara's lacking for Lee--but I don't think there's any doubt that she's quite happy to frak him, and she seemed totally swept away on New Caprica (albeit briefly). On the other hand, she mentions 'companionship', which is a good point. It's true that there's a whole range of issues that Kara has that Lee doesn't know about, and she shuts him out of a lot, so although they are friends they don't have that kind of total intimacy. But I don't think she has that with Sam either. Sam offers her no-strings-attached sex but that's hardly companionship. Some would argue this has allowed Kara to open up to Sam in her own time--there may be a case in that seeing as she did discuss her childhood abuse with him in Maelstrom. But she also shuts him down and pushes him away quite coldly as soon as she's done with him (usually straight after sex). I'd hardly call that a mature relationship. And I'd be very uncomfortable with Sam allowing that to continue on a longterm basis--it's gone on long enough--if Kara really sees her love for Sam as 'real' and 'adult' then she needs to make it a proper marriage. There's got to be some give and take. I see Kara take from Sam, but I don't see any give. So saying her love for him shows greater maturity than her love for Lee makes little sense to me.
Anyway, since this set my teeth on edge, I'm burying myself in loving Lee and Lee alone. So you can expect even more determined pimping of how great Lee is from me! *plots Lee spam* For starters, this has given me more motivation than ever to make that Lee character study vid. *g*
On the other hand, I'd like to say a big thank you to the Kara fangirls who did their utmost to talk moe out of my tailspin to day: especially
latteaddict and daybreak777. Really, I do appreciate it! Even if I'm still not convinced. ;-) And last but not least, today also saw the launch of
sasa_hq or 'Starbuck and Apollo Shippers Anonymous', for those of us who need support for that addiction... to quote the userinfo: 'Rather than trying to curb your obsession, SASA specializes in channelling it in healthy ways.' *lol*Oh and someone needs to come over here and talk
dionusia and I out of editing Sam out of our fannish creations as revenge. ;-)
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
still waitin' on that soup, part 2
Date: 2007-05-26 09:14 am (UTC)Dee was there and Lee took Dee’s hand and knew and expected it to be Dee. He even mentioned the little vacation they were supposed to be having.
Ok, thanks for helping me see Kara's pov, because I really didn't think of that. I don't think it's surprising Lee thought it was Dee--she was with him when he was shot, holding him. And it's far more in her character to sit by someone's bedside than Kara's.
did you notice how genuinely happy Kara was to see Lee after rescuing Sam?
So she could show off her boy toy. Yeah. I did.
She acted with Sam the exact same way she would have done if it was Helo standing there instead of Lee.
Ohh, we see this really differently. Because to me, it seemed deliberately demonstrative. I've never seen Kara so publicly gaga over anyone. Maybe that IS how she is all the time, and in front of Helo too. But wow... it's pretty confronting. And she was INSANELY focussed on Sam. She barely even noticed Lee was there. The introduction took a half second and she really didn't explain why it was important. Sam probably thought Lee was just anyone, not one of her best friends. And she immediately turned back to Sam and started sucking face with him. Didn't even pause to say goodbye. That's kinda rude even to your best friend who's in a relationship with someone else. It was all 'ok, hi, no frak off and leave us to fuck'. (Btw, I should be honest and say I've only watched that scene twice ever because it hurts me so much.)
I guess maybe the brilliance of RDM, is that he's shown us this situation from both sides and we can connect the dots as to why each character made certain choices.
Yes. I do think he has to be congratulated for doing that very well.
But as we both say often, you understand Lee's side far more easily and I feel the same about Kara. I do see why Lee makes his choices, especially when they're pointed out to me step by step.
Heee. Me too--I am glad you explained all this about Kara. I would never have got there on my own! And it's why I seek out people who understand her--because I am SO LOST when it comes to her! *giggle*
Re: still waitin' on that soup, part 2
Date: 2007-05-26 01:22 pm (UTC)But let me offer in commiseration that if the roles were reversed and Kara had to see Lee and Dee like that....I actually think my head would've exploded and I might've stopped watching...or at the very least giving up my K/L obsession and going strictly Kara/Sam. I doubt any amount of logic and sane conversation would've helped me. So I salute your strength to remain a K/L 'shipper after such a display as that. :)
wow, I think I've talked your ear off *looks contrite* :) :)
oh, my one wish for the LDYB1 scene was for Lee to grab Kara and run out of the bunkroom with her as fast as he could - as is shown in my icon. I actually called it *grab her and run* *hee*
you spamming me? Me spamming YOU!
Date: 2007-05-26 02:31 pm (UTC)No but it's human. And the pilots are both that!
Lee actually barged in and interrupted them making out.
Well I didn't see it that way at all. I didn't think it was unreasonable of Lee to want to meet the guy who Kara had gone all the way back to rescue. And I think it was an act of friendship for him to come to them, not wait for Kara to come to him. He was trying to show her that he cared, that he knew Sam was important and he was going to acknowledge and respect that. On a more selfish level, in regards to Sam, I think it was also Lee saying 'hi, I'm actually really important to this girl so you better meet me'. Lee was both acknowledging and trying to affirm the importance of his friendship with Kara.
And surely they have a system for signalling if they're having sex inside? I don't think he should have to mindread on that matter.
or at the very least giving up my K/L obsession and going strictly Kara/Sam. I doubt any amount of logic and sane conversation would've helped me. So I salute your strength to remain a K/L 'shipper after such a display as that. :)
Awww, thanks! Well you're doing amazingly well after the Dee/Lee 'twu luv' (NOT!) scene from TAB! I can't believe you're toughing it out after THAT! I must say I found Sam a lot harder to deal with after that. I've always tried to view him objectively but... is hard!
Lee to grab Kara and run out of the bunkroom with her as fast as he could - as is shown in my icon. I actually called it *grab her and run*
HEEE! Yeah, they were quite physical there briefly, weren't they?1 *loves* He wanted her SO BAD. He should totally make off with her. Consentual Kara-napping I can TOTALLY condone! ;-)
Wah! I must sleep now. Much chatty. Very good chatty! *yawns* Thanking you! G'night!