Vid chat: visualising effects

[bop_radar]

Vidding chats return! :) For those of you new to them, you can check out previous chats here.

This week's topic is visualising effects and it is co-moderated by lim. We'd really love this chat to function as a kind of shared workshop, with people sharing ideas with each other. So if you have a track out there that you're working with or considering working with and would like some shared brainstorming, share it with us here!

Below is an introduction from each of us.

From lim:

So, for me, effects are no different or separate from vidding; they're not an extra, they're not added on, they're an integral part of vidding, so I have a hard time not visualising them. I make visual associations all the time when I listen to music. Music is a mental landscape through which it's possible to move, populated and dynamic: like a holodeck, I spose.

I do a lot of free association when I'm vidding. In the first mp3 I've recorded myself playing through a track and just chunnered on about whatever the music seems to say, and what it looks like to me, what it sparks in my brain. I do this over and over when I'm vidding, and each time I'll get different ideas, visuals, elements to play with.

Audio file: Vidding Visualisation

I've tried to translate that into words, but it's a pretty right-brain activity, so there's a lot of umming and dorkalicious garblement, but I'm hoping that will encourage you to chunner on back to me without fear of being the dorkiest person in the post, haha!

I invite anyone who has a track they're working with to post it and for anyone who has a response, association, or visual, to comment in that thread.

Remember, we're ignoring the lyrics for now. Treat the voice/s as just another instrument, another element in the musical landscape. Listen to the shimmeryness, or growliness, or gloopiness of a voice, not what it's saying in English.

Then tomorrowish, I'm gonna pick a few responses and actually make what we're see-hearing, and I invite anyone who wants to to join in there too.

From Bop:

I'm a pretty odd one to be co-hosting this perhaps, as I am not a vidder who feels comfortable using effects. But hopefully by doing so I'll help others like me dip their toe in the waters. ;)

I don't know about the rest of you, but listening to lim's thoughts here makes me feel a bit less daunted going into the chat. For starters, I realised that I do already do visualisation work myself, even if I tend to think of it only in terms of clip choices (and not what effects to put on clips). It was also really 'normalising' to hear someone else have rambly associations about a track. And yes, it's really hard to put such a right-brain activity into words, but we can all have a go. :)

I don't want to say too much... I just want to say welcome (back) to vid chats, I hope you will all find this a helpful, friendly and constructive 'space'. It takes a bit of courage to share your thoughts with other vidders, I know, but hopefully this is somewhere where we can all reach out to each other a bit. I'm prepared to be a dork if you are. :p And just a reminder that you are very much encouraged here to reply to other commenters, not just the original poster(s)! And you are welcome here any time--there is no 'late' in vid chats.

For this chat in particular, I really encourage you to share your tracks, as lim suggests--how often do we get a chance to brainstorm with other vidders? Perhaps you could use one you've never been quite sure how to tackle (I know I have lots of those!).

If you don't have a track yourself but want to take part, please, PLEASE feel free to listen to other people's tracks and share your associations or ideas--you don't have to be an 'expert' to do this--we're just messing around here, no pressure, ok? And commenting to each other is a great way to take part here, even if it's just a 'hi, that's a really interesting track! made me think of ...'

And if you have any questions or random niggly things you've always wanted to ask about visualising, then feel free to share those in comments too. By all means share any interesting experiences you've had visualising effects too.

There's no rush either--I would really like to encourage people to drop back in here over the next week or so (or any time!). lim and I will pop into the comments as soon as we can, timezones and personal commitments permitting. See you soon! :)

ETA: Update! We shall relaxedly be attempting to make some things resulting from the conversations herein over the next week or so... we encourage anyone who wants to to try making something (for example "haze on the sand" or "red/green blur") and share it. I promise to handhold for anyone who fears their effects thing may look unintentionally tragic. :) We're just playing, yes? :)

Comments

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

lim, when you said in your track that the drum and piano were "in control", I knew just what you meant. I do a lot of the kind of visualization you're describing here, and that kind of identification of personality characteristics with instruments is something I keep coming back to -- specific instrumentation provides the actual structure of the vid.

Where I get stuck is the translation of the characteristics, the wibbly wobbly fiddle for example, into visual effects beyond basic clip choices, characters, or action. Sometimes I can actually hear a dissolve, but the way you get from the piano's cheeky attempts to imitate the fiddle to shaking and turning the video frame askew: that's the part I have trouble with.

This is a great discussion. I'm all agog. (:

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

*puzzled face*
Which post does this refer to? I think I've missed a part of the discussion....
*grab torchlight and trod of in search of the missing link*

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

It's the audio file lim posted in her introduction. Click where it says "Vidding Visualization".

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

And I've just made that clearer since I'm sure you won't be the only one having troubles. Thanks for the heads up!

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

Good Morning to you! You always up this early on a Sunday?
Yes, I completely missed that link, I'm such a scatterbrain. Anyway, loved the tut, totally made want to see the vid...Wish I could "see" music like that!

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Only when I have to work (alas!). ;)

And yes, I'd love to see the vid also.

[lim.livejournal.com]

It's not translation to me, any more than when you dance you're translating ABBA. I think basically I'm very literal: the piano is askew, let's tip the frame on its side...

If I were dancing to this music, I'd do all funny slapstick stumble-stepping there. Another way to look at it is that the piano is going for one note and stumbling to the two around it, like someone on roller blades trying to walk down stairs. I might cut on the BAM of the piano and shake the frame so it separates into green on the left and red on the right, like something being knocked slightly out of focus, just a blur-out the side and then back into step, and then again. It's all very literal, IMO. All nouns.

Again, you're separating out clip choices from effects, you're limiting and dividing up what you can do before you've even done it. If maybe you could try to move away from that for a moment, and close your eyes, and look at the music without thinking about the video footage, it might make it easier to see what I'm saying. It might not of course, haha!

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Eek, scary! Scary cool though. I love the dancing metaphor because dancing has really helped my vidding a lot. I often use it. However, I have no idea how you made that leap from the stumbling around (which I can see/feel too) to the idea of shaking the frame and separating green and red... I say this only in the interests of helping bridge the gap, but I would visualise the same feeling as internal movement--someone literally stumbling. Or possibly via jump cuts. I guess those are effects? But the idea of changing colour or using blur or something is nothing that would ever occur to me. Maybe because I don't know how to do them, and yet people tell me they learn effects 'because they needed them' to express their vid... so I get a bit confused by that. It's very chicken or egg to me! Learn the effect? Visualise the effect?

I am pleased from this discussion to learn that I do have a visualisation capacity... and it has been liberating to free associate about other people's tracks without knowing the source and therefore without being tied to specific canon clips. I'm interested to see where this goes!

[lim.livejournal.com]

Oh! Well, if you think about the whole concordant note the piano is aiming for splitting up into the discordant notes on either side, that's the same idea as a prism fracturing (whole) white light, like when you focus a lens on yellow and you get patches of red and green on either side?

For me vidding is an extended game of this is like that: the ball is round like the sun which is hot like this candle which is long like this stick which is wooden like this tree which grows like this child which cries like this violin...

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

For me vidding is an extended game of this is like that: the ball is round like the sun which is hot like this candle which is long like this stick which is wooden like this tree which grows like this child which cries like this violin...

This is so delicious that I am positively inspired. I want to try vidding that way! I have a feeling I might need to do it in a non-narrative way, possibly with non-fannish source. Hmm...

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

or me vidding is an extended game of this is like that: Just like free association in psychotherapy...
It sounds intriguing to vid like that and still make sense, but as of yet I can't get my head around how I could follow that principle and not lose my narrative or concept....*in awe*

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

This is definitely a breakthrough insight for me--I like your idea of 'matching' rather than translating--matching like with like... I do feel that's a paradigm shift for me in approach. Thanks!

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

the translation of the characteristics, the wibbly wobbly fiddle for example, into visual effects beyond basic clip choices, characters, or action
Same! I realised I do do this kind of visualisation but I nearly always then translate it to clip choices or character meta. Never effects. The only exception I can think of is when I use effects from the source--visualisation has sometimes led me to think of specific effects from the source--but that's still kind of a clip really.

However, even if I don't naturally think of effects (yet?) this conversation is making me realise that visualisation is valuable creative work that I should never underestimate in the process. That's a good thing for someone like me to learn because I didn't have any creative aspect to my life before vidding and things like visualisation still sit kind of awkwardly with me (like I can feel sheepish or guilty about spending time doing them--which is silly really).

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

::nodnod:: My first instinct is always to pair up the visualizations with images that I have in my head -- and those are always (or almost always) images that actually appeared on the show. Rarely I have one of those "oh wait, that shot doesn't actually exist" disappointments, and I have sometimes used effects at that point to create something similar. But I rarely seem able to come up with the effects as part of the visualization process, unless they're thematically related to the vid concept (as in "The Lonely People").

Arguably, I believe that all effects should be thematically related to the vid concept, but sometimes you just need a transition to smooth things out, or a matte to remove undesired visual information from a shot.

this conversation is making me realise that visualisation is valuable creative work that I should never underestimate in the process

Absolutely true! I sit on songs for a long, long time, and indulging my visualizations is the main reason for it. I've never regretted it.

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

Rarely I have one of those "oh wait, that shot doesn't actually exist" disappointments...
I have those moments ALL THE TIME. :|

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

I never have them. If it's not in the source, it doesn't go into my vid. And I feel deeply uncomfortable with tinkering with anything from the source in case someone notices how 'untrue' it is. Talk about hilarious paranoia! There are vids I'd love to make but I can't because the source doesn't exist. C'est la vie. But I think it's awesome you fight to overcome that lack.

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

I'm just like that, I feel a strong obligation to stay true to the source material (and canon). For some reason I have no problems with adding effects to the material but I can't seem to bring myself to using secondary sources. It kind of seems like cheating, I don't know. And then I see something like Nikki's Fall Of Man, and feel really stupid, because being more flexible means being able to really make meaningful comments and bring out the meta in a vid without being tied down by what's in the source. This is definitely something I will want to explore in future.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I never have them.

So you never plan a vid in your head with, say, a clip of Lex walking down stairs, and then when you go to the source you find there is no such clip? Or that it exists, but it doesn't look at all like you thought?

If it's not in the source, it doesn't go into my vid. And I feel deeply uncomfortable with tinkering with anything from the source in case someone notices how 'untrue' it is.

It's funny, I've never felt that way about visual source, but I used to be that way about the music. I couldn't bear to alter it in any way. The song felt somehow holy to me, and it was my duty to use every note and word of it, no matter how challenging: part of my job as a vidder. As you say, I felt it was cheating to mess with the music. I'm not really sure what changed my mind about that, but I've been cutting songs for a few years now.

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

There's nothing like looking through 5 seasons of screencaps only to realize the shot doesn't exist. Once you make something up, it's funny to see how many people notice and how many take it as face value (or at least to comment about it).

[lim.livejournal.com]

Hah, me too. IMO, the visual is in the source if it's in your brain--if the show actually exists as an interaction between your brain and the electronic flicker, then whereever the visual originates, it's part of the show. That's what's so exciting to me about stories--they are as infinite and various as we are.

Also I <3 messing around in Photoshop making maps and shit.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

This I agree with entirely. I've found that it's not always possible for me personally to create shots that aren't there, but I'm much freer with that kind of realization of my ideas than I used to be. Now I will usually try to create the shot if the show doesn't give it to me.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Heh. For me it depends on how well I know the show. I pretty much never have those moments for Buffy or Due South, because I've got the canon almost memorized. But for things I haven't vidded as much, yeah. More often than I'd like.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not translation to me, any more than when you dance you're translating ABBA. I think basically I'm very literal: the piano is askew, let's tip the frame on its side...

If I were dancing to this music, I'd do all funny slapstick stumble-stepping there. Another way to look at it is that the piano is going for one note and stumbling to the two around it, like someone on roller blades trying to walk down stairs. I might cut on the BAM of the piano and shake the frame so it separates into green on the left and red on the right, like something being knocked slightly out of focus, just a blur-out the side and then back into step, and then again. It's all very literal, IMO. All nouns.

Again, you're separating out clip choices from effects, you're limiting and dividing up what you can do before you've even done it. If maybe you could try to move away from that for a moment, and close your eyes, and look at the music without thinking about the video footage, it might make it easier to see what I'm saying. It might not of course, haha!

[lim.livejournal.com]

er, this was me

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I'd guessed! (:

Again, you're separating out clip choices from effects, you're limiting and dividing up what you can do before you've even done it. If maybe you could try to move away from that for a moment, and close your eyes, and look at the music without thinking about the video footage, it might make it easier to see what I'm saying.

I have no doubt it would; I've been trying to learn to think that way for a long time. But a big part of what vidding *is* to me is "I hear a song, I think of the show." I am capable of thinking of other things, too, of course; I can usually pick up impressions of color and light/dark value, movement, and of course emotions while listening to the song. But they all map back immediately to the show for me. I haven't been able to abstract those visualizations from the show source yet -- not fully, anyway.

But for me it's still a mental leap for me from the stumbling dancing to the jiggling frame. I get what you're saying about it being very literal, and that's quite helpful. I can hang onto that for a while and see what it ferments into. (: