bop_radar: Boppy default (Default)
bop_radar ([personal profile] bop_radar) wrote2008-03-12 07:29 pm
Entry tags:

Unfinished Business: the extended version

So the internet fairies delivered me the extended version of Unfinished Business, and since it's been so very long since I had anything new to chatter about with BSG, I'm eager to talk about it. Anyone else seen it yet? Be warned, though, that my reaction is highly shippy--this being the K/L-shippiest episode of all time, it was kinda unavoidable. ;)

First let me say that I *loved* the short, edited version of Unfinished Business and I'm not that surprised to find that I still greatly prefer it to the longer version (I love good editing!). In some cases,I'm very glad that the extra footage didn't make the cut, in others I'm delighted that the scenes were at least shot/scripted. The extended version is very revealing, but it left me with far more conflicted feelings than the short version did.

Before I get to pilots on their own, let me first say: poor Dee! She always gets her scenes cut, and this is a case where her side of the story got cut out almost entirely. Adama's call about her needing the fight too was really tragic in a way: the fight turned out to be the last thing Dee 'needed'. I think this version makes everything--the fighting, the frakking, the marrying--a FAR bigger screwover of Dee. And it makes it obvious long before TAB that Lee was in major, major denial and his attempts not to 'lie' to Dee are farcical. While that's always been suggested, it doesn't make for pleasant watching to have it spelt out like this.

On a lighter note (sort of!), Lee's reaction to Dee showing up at the dance made me total LOL. Which is terribly mean to Dee, but oh, man, that is NOT how you want your husband to greet you. He looked oh 'oh, damn, why are YOU here'. And his awkward hug seemed to be totally avoiding a direct kiss, even before he blew her off for Kara. I couldn't help wincing at how far gone Lee was in that moment--he seemed not at ALL cut up about turning down sex with his wife for a fight with his ex. It was worse than that--because there was no guarantee the dance would go on long enough for them to fight again: one of their tags had to be drawn out. So it made it seem like Lee had committed to the bout just as much as Kara had. In the edited version, I think that was less obvious.

I'm very glad that most of the dialogue between Dee and Lee didn't make the final cut--it was too overstated, especially the story about the boys that used to beat Dee up. But at least it showed that Dee's not stupid--and she was trying to get Lee to talk about the situation, only he just wouldn't admit anything. Even before she explicitly asked him not to, she was making it pretty hard for Lee to step in the ring with Kara, because by saying 'your fight is about passion' the minute he did so, it was a betrayal of Dee. Lee, of course, was wrapped in about ten layers of denial. When he says that Kara's just been pissing him off... well, that is ALSO true, but it's definitely not the whole truth. And apparently the whole room knew it.

The extended version does clear up the mystery of why Dee wasn't phased by Lee not coming to bed with her that night. I kind of thought she must have known about the field, but it seems she didn't. It also seemed to be suggested that she was piecing things together after Kara dropped the line about having 'been there done that'. She thought there was UST between Kara and Lee and was worried it was unresolved, but then she learns that there's more of a history than she thought. Adding to the sting is the fact that it was Dee who encouraged Lee to stay out that night, and who commented that she'd never seen him so happy. Dee is actually a LOT more clear-sighted about the whole situation than Lee, who later mentions the happiness that he's experienced with Dee: Dee herself knows that pales in comparison to the way he glows around Kara.

Until the proposal scene between them, I really wasn't finding a lot of their interaction revealing. But I actually found the proposal scene itself very powerful. (Don't die of shock!) This scene really shapes the entire Lee/Dee marriage and I think it would have made more sense to viewers if it could have been left in. It makes Kara totally right to call Lee on being a hypocrite. If she 'ran' then so did he; she did so in response to intimacy, he did so in response to rejection. It's all transparently obvious in the scene with Dee. Lee is jittery and all over the place, he can't compose himself and he's rushing to excesses that don't actually hold any weight. He as much as says 'Kara got married, so i may as well marry you now... I'm trying to put the best spin on this as I possibly can'. Oh, Lee! *buries face in hands and despairs* Dee can see that and she calls the situation COMPLETELY accurately. I've never really warmed to Dee as a character, but I do respect her for that. When she said 'you love Kara Thrace', Lee looks so startled--you can see him thinking 'how does she know about last night?' and panicking. Dee's completely right--the two of them are 'linked somehow' and one day Kara will be back.

This scene gives confirmation of Dee's own motivations in the marriage. Her line reflects Roslin's about 'living every day as if it's the last'. She's taking what she can get, while she can, even if it's not perfect. However, she also sends Lee into a massive guilt spiral here. Not undeserved, perhaps, but also not at all healthy or helpful. She says she'll love and cherish him despite knowing he loves Kara. That doesn't leave Lee any way to be honourable and I think it really hurts him that he can't return her love exactly. He's still struggling with Kara's rejection--he seizes on that when Dee says 'when Kara Thrace comes walking back'. For him, he's trying to absorb the fact that it's totally over with Kara. But when he catches himself arguing with Dee, I think he realises a moment too late that what he should be saying is not 'Kara's not coming back' but 'I love YOU'. It IS easier for both of them to kiss in that moment than to keep arguing and dealing with the painful truth.

Lee's going to cop a lot of crit for all the lying he does in this episode. Even from me. He basically acts like a total shit and he uses denial as a coping mechanism. He tries desperately to compartmentalise, telling himself that his realtionship with Dee is NOT about Kara in any way. But it's transparently obvious that it was always a reaction to Kara. Ouch. He had to stay in denial to make the relationship work, but as soon as that was broken down (in the dance) it all fell apart.

Final note on Dee: Gaeta really should have taken her by the arm and whisked her away from the ringside. Symapthetic glances not enough!

Tongue-in-cheek question: Does Kara ever have sex with the person she's actually having sex with?! ;) Flashing to the Kara/Lee field sex during the extended version of the Kara/Sam sex made it far more explicit that she wasn't really connecting with Sam in that moment. I'm not quite optimist enough to believe we were really meant to think Kara was consciously thinking of that moment but evoking it still added a lot more weight to Sam's 'maybe I'm not what you really want' call. I liked the extended dialogue between Kara and Sam for a couple of reasons: firstly because it made Sam seem less of a pushover and secondly because the extra Kara dialogue seemed revealing to me. Her line about not trying to change Sam's mind read to me like a line she'd prepared in advance--because Sam wasn't talking about his mind in that moment, he was talking about hers.

The moment when Kara catches sight of Lee in the ring was far more powerful in the edited version, but I think in this version there was a few extra seconds of her actually clapping the fight, which I liked. And she looked so playful bouncing into the ring. It also seemed just as obvious, if not more so, that she came to the dance to pick a fight with Lee or that she decided on that course of action pretty fast once she turned up.

I was interested to see the extra Lee/Helo moment after their fight. It made them seem a lot more amicable and made it explicit that they respect one another. I always wondered about their fight, about who picked it and how much animosity was there before and after it, because those two clashed a number of times in Season 3. This tips the scales back towards them being on 'buddy' terms.

The scene I really loved was Kara and Anders with the Tighs. Omg, how lolarious! Kara was adorable with her 'they're not going to be friends, are they?' (no honey, but they ARE going to be Cylons!) and her freaked-out eyes at Ellen making an overt pass at her boyfriend. Oh, Kara, you're too cute.

And wow, turns out Sharon's a better gal!pal than I realised. Hearing her bring up Lee with Kara was somewhat startling because Kara/Lee are so rarely acknowledged by other crew mates but she was right on target: Kara was definitely conflating. Also, the dialogue seemed to indicate that Lee met Kara when she was already with Zak. Hmm. What it really got me thinking about though was what mistakes Kara thinks Lee has been making 'since the day he met me'. At first that line made NO SENSE to me at all. Was she complaining that he'd made moves on her? or that he hadn't? I tried both readings and decided that it was a complicated combination of both that made no logical sense but made sense in Kara!brain. ;) The line ties with Kara's call about Lee not knowing 'when to make his moves and when to hold back'. (But when IS that, Kara? could you give him a guidebook, because it sure as hell isn't clear to me!) Kara's anger seems to be twofold: she's ostensibly angry at Anders for being too possessive, but it's hinted in the field scene that she wishes Lee had been able to admit he needed her earlier. I guess that's the paradox: Kara wants to be needed/loved, but she also hates being 'trapped'. (Ok, someone come tell me if I've read Kara completely wrong.)

When Kara took Lee on the tour of her house, Lee saying 'don't jinx it' really hit me in the gut because I feel like HE jinxed it by saying 'Kara Anders' and because I think he meant it genuinely at that moment... only they're both about to ruin four people's lives. *wibbles*

But this scene had me all up and down emotionally, because on the other hand I liked that Kara played up the innuendo with the bedroom--it was a bit more of a come-on then we'd seen from her in the edited version and helps explain how Lee got the courage up to make a move. It was so obvious from his behaviour that he was jealous, that he didn't think much of 'pyramid boy' and that he wished that house was his.

I liked Kara's vulnerability in the 'got anyone in mind, Lee?' moment. But I thought the shorter version, sans applecarts, was more romantic. (However, I'm torn, because Lee casting himself as applecart-upsetter is kind of adorable.)

One thing I didn't like: the longer version made Kara's screamed love declaration far more of a dare. Lee's little line about her being 'afraid' would have totally goaded her into it, regardless of what she truly felt. So I was all busy feeling upset about that, and then...

SHE SAID IT. SHE SAID IT FOR REALZ!!!

Hearing Kara ask Lee if he was sure she was what he wanted totally startled me--so many Kara fans have told me she was genuinely anxious about his feelings, but it's usually so hard for me to see that. So I really appreciated seeing her actually ask him. And as if that wasn't enough SHE SAID SHE LOVED HIM. USING THE FIRST-PERSON PRONOUN. NOT JUST AS A DARE! *squeeeeeeeeee* I never dared believe she'd really said that to him. I am SO glad (even if it made the next morning more painful). I see why Jamie mentioned this moment of the pilots being honest with each other as one he would have liked left it. Apart from anything else, they mentioned ZAK! I'm very glad about that because I do think he was a shadow between them for so long. But I am also glad that Lee's dialogue showed that it wasn't just Zak that held him back, it was also his own fear. And then when Kara answered him it seemed like she recognised that feeling herself--it felt like she found a way to understand Lee a little better maybe, because she had fears of her own. I was surprised by how gentle she was with Lee, and how forgiving she seemed in that moment. It made it really seem like she'd wished he'd made a move earlier but had been too afraid herself to do anything about it--which makes a stronger parallel between both of them.

And as if the 'I love you too' was not enough, we got another little smile from her afterwards as they kissed and she relaxed in his arms. That TOTALLY matched the smile in his arms at the end of the fight! *more squee*

Watching Unfinished Business this time was a different experience for me even without the longer version, simply because I happen to be in quite a 'Kara-y' mood/place at the moment. I'm not sure why, except that I've been missing her. And my first reaction to seeing her in UB was 'omg, I'd forgotten how awesome you are!' despite the fact that she was frakking over Lee. So even her ultra-bitchy comments in this didn't really bother me. I giggled at 'Hold that thought, ok?' in response to Lee screaming 'motherfrakker' at her. She's so damn infuriating and so damn adorable all at the same time!

The Tigh scene, which I already knew about, was actually better in execution than it sounded on paper. I thought Katee brought a lot to that scene--she made it seem a lot more natural than I thought was possible. Like the Dee stuff, I am glad they cut it because I think it was overstated to have her reflect on 'survival instinct'. But I do think the fact that she came back to town and got a taste of 'reality' would have made the night before seem surreal, like something that couldn't be trusted.

And ok, I STILL don't completely understand why she ran from Lee. However, I think the heart of it has got to lie in the different sources of fear for Kara and Lee. Lee's fear is of rejection--he'll do anything to avoid it. But once Kara accepted him and his love for her, his fear evaporated. Presumably that's when Kara's fears were most kicking in. If it's not rejection she fears, it's intimacy? expectations?

From a boxing pov, I really liked the line 'did I break the rules?' as an acknowledgment that Kara did play dirty in that fight. But Lee's response shows it didn't really matter--the entire fight was outside the parameters of the 'dance' and he knew all bets were off. I rather liked Lee having the guts to call her on the fact that she ran, that her action was self-protective, that she's always closed-off.

With the extended fight, I find myself with the same conflicted feelings I have about the whole extended episode: on the one hand, I liked the extra material because it did add something to the picture. But on the other hand, I found the short version far more powerful and effective. Even more 'romantic' in a way. I liked the idea of a non-verbal 'fight to a standstill'. But it was impossible not to grin at 'why? so you can hit me some more?' (And pssst, Lee, that's what you need to do: HANG ON SO SHE CAN'T HIT YOU ANY MORE! Physically OR emotionally!) Also, I really loved Kara saying 'I think things just got more complicated'. It made an even clearer parallel to their post-coital scene in the field. And I loved Lee's hysterical reaction to her saying that. I SO thought he was going to kiss her. But then his giggle could have been a 'oh shit, I might just wind up hurting her nose more, if I try that' as well as a giggle at the sheer frakked-up-ness. It was somehow cathartic to see them collapse together, but I really wish Dee hadn't still been there. Having them end in a tumble on the ground though reminded me of them nearly suffocating together.

Dee is right. They are tied together somehow. And I wish they'd just accept how much they need each other already!

Oh, show! Come baaaaaaaaack, I missshhhs you!
ext_10249: (battlestar galactica)

[identity profile] nicole-anell.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 12:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Haven't seen the extended version yet, but this post is some fascinating meta, thanks. Honestly I've never been a fan of UB and I don't really get any of the characters' motivations in it, but this certainly clears some things up.

I'm looking forward to the extended version for the silliest of reasons, that I want to see Kara interact with the Tighs and Sharon, and I want more Dualla in the quadrangle.

Does Kara ever have sex with the person she's actually having sex with?!
Hee! Not if there's flashbacks or boxing involved.

And my first reaction to seeing her in UB was 'omg, I'd forgotten how awesome you are!'
LOL! I miss my show and Kara *so much* dammit.

[identity profile] areasontofight.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 12:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't seen the extended episode yet, but I couldn't resist reading your comments anyway - what little willpower I do have evaporates when I'm at work and bored. :) Any idea where I'd be able to find it on-line? DVDs always take forever to get to the UK from Amazon.com and I don't think I can last that long.

What I was hoping for from the extended version was a little more from Kara's pov. Something showing why she ran from Lee other than just her fear of intimacy, of giving herself completely to someone she truly loves. And it sounds like we get a little of that so I'm happy. Not so happy about it painting Lee in such a bad light, because he gets enough crap from fandom as it is. But I think I like the blame being more evenly balanced between the two of them.

The fact that we get a real 'I love you' from Kara is amazing - that will make everything else worth it I think. *squee*

I'm never sure with BSG - are deleted scenes canon? The ones in UB must be right, since we get them in an extended episode and not just lumped together as an extra...?

[identity profile] asta77.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 12:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I've seen it too. ;) I'm going to print out your post and read it later. I don't feel I can respond right now. I'm still processing what I watched (and the vast amount of notes I jotted down). I didn't much care for the episode the first time around and now I find I have massive issues with the extended cut. It's odd because in some ways I do feel that the extended version is better, it certainly helps to clarify what people were thinking and feeling and why they made the choices they did. Kara I believe is put in a better light, I certainly sympathize with her more than I did before. But Lee and Dee I'm really struggling with at the moment (as well as some general plot points involving other characters) and until I get my feelings sussed out I think it's best to not let other posts influence me. I will say I don't think I'm going to be the most popular person in fandom next week. ;)

[identity profile] asta77.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 12:43 pm (UTC)(link)
As I just replied to Bop, I was no fan of this episode the first time around and less so now. I'm still trying to get my thoughts straight, but tune in next week when I become an unpopular person in fandom. ;)

[identity profile] skuf.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 01:07 pm (UTC)(link)
What coincidence, that episode was just on here on Sunday, and I've been meaning to seek you out to ask all sorts of questions :o) !

Main question being why Kara got up and married Anders - that just doesn't make sense to me. Not even fear of intimacy makes it make sense??

And the infidelity to Dee/Anders makes me sad, but I have to admit I got all warm at heart at the end of the episode when Lee says he's missed Kara - awww :o(

Also: N'awwwww I loved the [platonic?] Roslin/Adama, it makes me happy in my brain, wheee!

[identity profile] latteaddict.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 01:27 pm (UTC)(link)
weee, I've been waiting for the posts to pop up. I've seen it too and already have my review typed up. I think I'll post it now before I go to bed so hopefully tomorrow we might be able to discuss a little about how we both interpreted the ep. But it's late right now and I want to re-read what you wrote before I comment. You definitely brought up a couple of things I didn't realise. Catch ya tomorrow, girly!

[identity profile] 3gomez.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 01:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I had promised to myself that I would stay spoiler-free about anything BSG before I see it,but I try too hard on S4,so a little extended S3 glimpse is allowed.I am that good.

May I say your meta is extremely interesting...I am now anticipating the viewing even more.
One thing I never was sure about is:what are we to consider canon now?The extended edition or the cut we actually saw on tv(or should just keep the good parts of each?)?I am a fan of tight,well-edited episodes myself.

Glad for the light on Kara's actions.I hope some of the Kara-bashing will slow down now.But I expect tons of bitching about Lee...poor kid,whatever he does,someone will find something wrong.Not sure I'm anticipating that.

And from what you've writen,I don't think I will feel more sorry for Dee.I admit I'm not the biggest fan of her character(what I liked best was her interaction with Billy) but I always felt for her because she got hurt,stuck in the middle of the most frakked-up love story in history,and because no woman deserves getting cheated like that.But I feel a lot more for Sam,as he was ignorant_while Dee seems(from what you've said)like she knew EXACTLY where she was throwing herself into.Yet,she still chose to be with a man she knew didn't love her.HUGE MISTAKE.
ext_10249: (snarkses with wolves)

[identity profile] nicole-anell.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 04:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Hey, awesome. You can criticize UB, I can defend "Taking a Break" so hard I hope there is *even more of it* on the DVD, and we'll have an unpopularity contest. :p

[identity profile] dionusia.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 04:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Hahaha, WT, I may be kinder in my heart to Lee than even you are! It's not that I'm not frustrated with his behavior, it's just that I think both pilots are so very full of it and both so deep in denial, it makes it easier for me to understand Lee and Kara's lies because they are so obviously lying to themselves foremost. Lee does it because he'd always had to be in denial about Kara (suppress his feelings not only because of Zak, but because of their profession) and the upheval of being rejected like that after the most vulnerable and happy moment of his life put him into a kind of emotional shellshock. He was so desperate to get back to that state of denial, to thinking that all his chances of happiness weren't wrapped up in a woman who'd just dashed all his hopes, that he couldn't even see how stupid and reckless and horrible he was being in his proposal to Dee.

Kara lies to herself because it's easier for her to blame others and put on a show of anger than it is to admit how much she might need love (or be needed and valued by others). This ep really spells out how much she fears being close to anyone, and it tracks not only in her rel. with Lee but also with Sam and even Kacey. It's so sad that she can't feel like she could really be loved by Lee that much ("Are you sure I'm what you want?" I think is more reflective of her own insecurity than Lee's lack of action before) and that she bolts even after they reach such a level of honesty with one another, but given her childhood, it makes a Kara kind of sense. Growing up, she felt love but also awful physical and emotional pain and rejection from the person she needed most. Thus the paradoxical feelings and actions, drawing closer and pushing back. Damn it. See, this is why I ship Kara/emotional stability above all else. She needs to get her head on straight (and so does Lee)!

Maybe I'm not so disturbed by this cut because I already knew about the frakked-up proposal scene (mentioned in a podcast). And I went through my frustrated-with-Kara phase after UB (although she wasn't so vicious in the version that aired; thank goodness her brutal outing of their frak to Dee was cut!) and I went through my extremely-frustrated-with-Lee phase after TaB (with much yelling at the screen). If I had seen this version those phases would have just overlapped.

I also think Dee is less of a doormat than I originally thought. (WTF, you are thinking. I know!) I mean to say that Dee's agency shouldn't be minimized in this situation. She made her choice and it wasn't blind. She went into this with her eyes open and accepted that she wanted to take as much happiness as she could, for however long it would last. I used to be mad at her for thinking so little of herself, for accepting that she was not as important as Kara but still wanting to be with Lee anyway; but [livejournal.com profile] daybreak777 encouraged me to see Dee as having very--well, human hopes, and she really does love him. Lee does see the light and recommits himself to Dee after TaB, and I'm glad. JB said in an interview that Lee's marriage was pretty good, even though it began for the wrong reasons. I feel like I finally understand what he meant there. I really do belive that Lee feels genuine love for Dee: she's stable, intelligent, beautiful, why wouldn't he want to turn to that? The tragedy of this is that there will always be this pull in his heart toward Kara in spite of it all, and he's not man enough to face that fully until after she's gone.

The temptation of wanting to just live in the moment and try to be happy is the theme of UB, not shippy feelings, although of course there is great overlap between theme and subject there. It's a story that could only be told within the frame of being back on Galactica, with the haven revealed as false and all hopes of paradise lost, with the personal and professional relationships back in a greater tangle, with Adama getting up and saying he never should have given them that chance to be simply human, because they paid the cost in lives. That's the sadness of it all -- they have to take up their burdens, but they will always be haunted by the shadow of the past. Poor souls. They still can't get their chance at normal.
Edited 2008-03-12 16:35 (UTC)

[identity profile] jude-judith82.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Just a short response because I'm ambivalent about the episode. I didn't like but I didn't hate it eh but go on and enjoy your shippy heart because...

They are tied together somehow. And I wish they'd just accept how much they need each other already

Wiser words have never been spoken!

[identity profile] dionusia.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 04:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Haha. You know, this extended cut of UB (which I don't prefer to the aired version) actually reconciled me to the parts of TaB that I didn't like! But of course I loved the Baltar parts before this.

*pulls up a seat to join the Unpopular Opinions Club*

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm looking forward to the extended version for the silliest of reasons, that I want to see Kara interact with the Tighs and Sharon, and I want more Dualla in the quadrangle.
Well it defintely delivers on those fronts. The silly parts were actually GREAT, I thought. :)

[identity profile] brigantia-65.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 08:37 pm (UTC)(link)
GAWD! I've missed reading your thoughts on this show.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 08:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I pretty much knew you'd hate it. ;) And I'm a big believer in not influencing your own posts by reading too much else before hand, so I won't say much here. And don't worry about not being popular: I don't think many people will like the longer version more than the short one. I can certainly see why they cut a lot of this out, but on the other hand it frustrates me because there were some necessary 'missing pieces', I think, leading into the quadrangle: most obviously with Dee.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Main question being why Kara got up and married Anders - that just doesn't make sense to me. Not even fear of intimacy makes it make sense??
Wrong person to ask, I'm afraid! Kara baffles me. My go-to girls for Kara meta are [livejournal.com profile] wisteria_ and [livejournal.com profile] daybreak777. There are a few things that do help make a bit more sense of it: in Razor, Lee as commander ordered Kara to sacrifice her life for the mission. So while they're still in the same chain of command, there's always that danger that they'll be in a situation that demands something similar again. Also, Kara fans tell me Kara still had guilt about shooting Lee and has a deep-seated fear of reliving her Zak experience (i.e. being responsible for his death). I guess those things add an edge to her fears.

the infidelity to Dee/Anders makes me sad, but I have to admit I got all warm at heart at the end of the episode when Lee says he's missed Kara - awww :o(
Hee. I'm glad it made you 'aww'. It was Kara's 'misshed' that made me 'aww' because I'm so totally in Lee's perspective. It seemed too good to be true first time round, and still makes me glow now, on about the 10th rewatch.

Roslin and Adama are cute, arent't they?! With the getting stoned and flirty. Hee!

Part 1

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Hahaha, WT, I may be kinder in my heart to Lee than even you are!
Not possible! Did I mention my heart?! My heart it still totally Lee's. I just thought people would get bored and throw things at me if I didn't mention what a shit he was. No-one wants to hear me say 'but I love him anyway' every second sentence--it goes without saying! ;) (Although that's what my BSG reviews are usually like!)

it makes it easier for me to understand Lee and Kara's lies because they are so obviously lying to themselves foremost
I absolutely agree with that. And I think this episode actually made it feel a lot more 'equal' between them. As you point out, they are BOTH deeply in denial, both conflating current partners with past ones.

the upheval of being rejected like that after the most vulnerable and happy moment of his life put him into a kind of emotional shellshock. He was so desperate to get back to that state of denial, to thinking that all his chances of happiness weren't wrapped up in a woman who'd just dashed all his hopes, that he couldn't even see how stupid and reckless and horrible he was being in his proposal to Dee.
Yup! That's a perfect description of what happened. Can I point people to it?! :)

Kara lies to herself because it's easier for her to blame others and put on a show of anger than it is to admit how much she might need love (or be needed and valued by others).
You know, I never was convinced that Kara DID lie to herself that much. So often all I see is 'surface Kara', the hard-edged tough pilot, but this episode definitely strips that back and proves that there IS more underneath and that she's in as much denial as Lee.

"Are you sure I'm what you want?" I think is more reflective of her own insecurity than Lee's lack of action before
Yeah, you're right... It does make me wonder though if all she really wants is SOMEone to love her, not LEE to love her. That moment definitely played as a 'how could anyone really want me?' moment. And with Sam she was all 'I won't change your mind'--as if she wasn't surprised that he was pulling away from her. What do you think it will take for Kara to trust someone's love?

Growing up, she felt love but also awful physical and emotional pain and rejection from the person she needed most. Thus the paradoxical feelings and actions, drawing closer and pushing back.
Thank you--that does make intellectual sense to me. It's just something I've got no emotional 'in' to, so I struggle to understand the way that works intuitively. Poor Kara. :(

I went through my extremely-frustrated-with-Lee phase after TaB (with much yelling at the screen). If I had seen this version those phases would have just overlapped.
Heee. You know, TAB didn't bother me that much. Because by then I'd worked out by extrapolation what we (essentially) see here in the extended version so it didn't come as that big a surprise. I just wished we'd seen it earlier. So I actually really liked the proposal scene (in a frakked up way)--I thought it was the strongest of all the cut scenes. And yeah, it hurt me and felt all twisted and wrong, but it WAS all twisted and wrong, so I'm fine with that reaction. And I don't actaully feel any anger at Lee at all--it's just not in me. I identify WAY too much with his actions, to the point of even thinking 'oh god, this is something *I* would do!' in the proposal scene. *hides face in shame*

Dee's agency shouldn't be minimized in this situation. She made her choice and it wasn't blind
Totally! I second that. It's one reason I wished the proposal HADN'T been cut.

Part II

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Lee does see the light and recommits himself to Dee after TaB, and I'm glad. JB said in an interview that Lee's marriage was pretty good, even though it began for the wrong reasons. I feel like I finally understand what he meant there. I really do belive that Lee feels genuine love for Dee: she's stable, intelligent, beautiful, why wouldn't he want to turn to that? The tragedy of this is that there will always be this pull in his heart toward Kara in spite of it all, and he's not man enough to face that fully until after she's gone.
Exactly! It's good to hear that you've made sense of what Jamie said. The only reason I didn't really talk about that here is because I kind of feel I went through all that already with TAB, of which I was more of a fan than you, and hey, just about anyone, lol! I don't find Lee turning to Dee hard to understand at all, and it totally choked me up to see him in the proposal scene eating himself alive already for not being able to return her love 'purely'.

It's interesting that Lee thought he'd faced how much he needed Kara in the field after he screamed his love out. But her rejection left him desperately needing to put a lid on that again, to deny that need completely. His anger at her through that whole time until UB makes so much sense, as well as the suddenness with which he falls back into her arms. But then I never really found that hard to understand. ;)

It sounds like you enjoyed the long version? So did I. If my review sounded like I was uncomfortable with it, it's only because I found it less focused and more of a tangle of conflicting scenes/moods than the shorter version. SO glad to have seen it though because there's some great extra material in there.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 09:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Hee! Well, thanks. I was going to enjoy the long version no matter what I think: more Lee is NEVER BAD. :D And more Lee/Kara makes me happy even while making me wince at their frakked-up-ness.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 09:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Awww, thank you! :D I've missed talking about the show!

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 09:13 pm (UTC)(link)
The Baltar scenes of extreme lack of subtelty?! LOL, you are cute! :p They were the part of TAB I hated.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 09:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm there for more TAB. :D As long as it's got more Lee...

[identity profile] sjwashere.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 10:27 pm (UTC)(link)
To be honest I've only seen the extended scenes of A/R which were awesome. I just can't stomach K/L much any more they both need to grow up.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 11:51 pm (UTC)(link)
And fair enough! :) There's no denying that Lee and Kara need to grow up.

Adama/Roslin does not much for me (and kind of squicks me) so I struggled through those scenes, but I could see they were great for those into the ship.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-12 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, yes! I understand the long wait for S4...

Re. canon, well, opinions are divided. I'd say there's definitely more of a case for the extended version of UB being canon than for deleted scenes from other eps. I tend to have a pretty inclusive view and I generally accept deleted scenes as canon except where they directly contradict the edited version (this doesn't often happen on BSG).

But I expect tons of bitching about Lee...poor kid,whatever he does,someone will find something wrong.
I know. :( I got it out of the way fast in my review. He's certainly not a noble figure in UB, but I find completely human and sympathetic nonetheless, and I won't apologise for that. Very few of the characters in the BSG 'verse are wholly likeable--they just have a different set of flaws.

I feel a lot more for Sam,as he was ignorant_while Dee seems(from what you've said)like she knew EXACTLY where she was throwing herself into.Yet,she still chose to be with a man she knew didn't love her.HUGE MISTAKE.
Well, yes, it does make it clearer that Dee knew what she was getting herself into (whereas Anders didn't really). But in one way I liked that because it gives her more agency, she's not just a 'victim'. We might not agree with her choice or be inclined to make it ourselves, but it was hers to make. It does help explain why she stayed with Lee even once she knew he was seeing Kara again. I always found that a bit hard to understand--but if she knew from the start that she might be facing that and thought it was worth it anyway, well, who am I to judge? I can kind of see where she's coming from. The speech in extended UB really helped with that: she talks about the fact that they could die any day and that she just wants to live her life to the fullest while she can. Obviously a relationship's a big part of that to her, and sure it's not perfect, but (apparently) it's better than nothing.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2008-03-13 12:03 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I was in the same boat with waiting for DVDs as I'm in Australia. I've seen torrents up for the extended eppy. I'll have a hunt around and see if I can find one for you. :)

We do see a little more from Kara's pov, and she comes across more sympathetically in the extended version, but I still struggle to understand her motivations. ([livejournal.com profile] dionusia summarises them very well below though!)

Not so happy about it painting Lee in such a bad light, because he gets enough crap from fandom as it is.
Tell me about it! I get so sick of the Lee-bashing, and this ep won't help. I love Lee to bits and what I see here only made me feel more for him, but it's definitely Lee at his least noble.

I think I like the blame being more evenly balanced between the two of them.
I found I really liked that. It makes it much more obvious that they were BOTH heavily in denial and relying on 'fight or flight' responses. Having Lee propose to Dee so fast after Kara proposed to Anders makes the two marriages even more clearly paralleled.

The fact that we get a real 'I love you' from Kara is amazing - that will make everything else worth it I think. *squee*
It did for me. ;) Seriously, nothing could have made me happier! :) It's a really good one too. I was always so worried she only said it because Lee dared her too and she's Kara Thrace and can't appear chicken about anything. But this one comes after they've opened up to each other and even my Kara-doubting heart can't see how it's anything but genuine. (If only genuine in that moment... it seems like the next morning she shut down on those feelings again.)

I think I came away from the extended version feeling surer that Kara really did want Lee--that was an unexpected bonus.

Page 1 of 4